Conduct of play Your decisions please

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by OldGitEd, Jan 28, 2018.

  1. DrRhythm

    DrRhythm FHF Starter

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    I knew I'd picked up 'try it' on here somewhere. It was this advice from @keely in this thread 2011:

    "Going back when advantage doesn't accrue is one of the reasons I don't yell "play" to signal advantage, but rather "try it", "you've got it", etc. "Play" is intended to signify that no foul has occurred (sometimes in that no disadvantage was caused) and I most certainly won't be going back to anything. The words also seem to help the thought process for me as well - if a player is having to work awfully hard when I'm telling them to "try it", I shouldn't be making it so hard on them. Then the players aren't surprised when I go back to the initial foul because, after all, I told them we were just giving it a shot."
     
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  2. SPetitt

    SPetitt FHF All Time Great

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    With No.1 I think it might be helpful to remember that you are not trying to assess advantage, you are looking to see whether the fouled player has been DISadvantaged, as @keely implies in the quoted post.

    In this case, if he has continued , at the same pace and with the ball still under control, why should you award him a FH? He is only deserving of one if his or his team's progress towards a goal attempt has been impeded by some contravention of the rules.

    (Incidentally it is this wording of the so-called Advantage Rule which makes it clear that not every defender's foot in the circle merits a PC ;) )

    As a player i was always coached to "Play To The Whistle !", and that is what all players should do, IMO.
    If the umpire makes any of the suggested calls, there is no need for them to do anything else.
    Sadly there are some players who seem to think that the correct response to a perceived foul, is to stop, put their arm in the air, and/or appeal.
    I have never had a player stop and ask me whether "Play It!" meant I'd seen no foul, or I had but was 'playing advantage' :rolleyes:
    I think that with most of the players I usually umpired, "Try It!" or "Nothing There!" would have given more confusion than assistance !
    i did once have a post-match telling-off from and England over-40 male player who said "I NEVER want to have 'advantage' when i am attacking the edge of the circle. I just said "I am not, especially at this level, giving you a FH or PC for an ineffectual stick tackle which you appeared to completely ignore. " :p
     
    #62 SPetitt, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
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  3. OldGitEd

    OldGitEd FHF Newbie

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    Another two from the weekend:

    1) Quick counter attack after interception. Ball to Right wing curling in towards D lifts ball skillfully over the approaching defender (no danger, defender about 10m from ball) to attacker positioned between P-spot and top of D. Ball is quite high above the head of said receiving attacker who raises his stick vertically to try and play it directly towards the goal. Nearest defender is GK who responded to this attacking play by rushing towards the attacker and closes the gap between him and attacker - now less than 5m. Attacker makes no contact with the ball despite his best efforts. Umpire allows play to continue. Attacker, toys out of the cot, insists he was not allowed time and space to control ball onto the ground due to the GK close proximity.
    2) FHA about 1m outside the circle - One defender just inside circle. Attacker self-pass and takes the ball 180° away from circle for about 3m, turns and runs back towards circle. Defender waits until he has made a few meters back then leaves the circle to tackle attacker. Decision - Play on. Must be because the ball was deemed to cover 5m or so? Attackers livid.
    3) As in #2, but this time defender follows the attacker after allowing the attacker a brief moment to create space between them. Decision - PC not 5m. Defender complains that he does not have to be 5m from ball as the ball was taken away from D, he was not attempting a tackle and merely maintained the distance between them.

    Your turn.
     
    #63 OldGitEd, Feb 13, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  4. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    1) A fully kitted GK trundling towards is definitely a distraction. If the ball passed the stick, rather than clear over the top, that could well have been PC. An excitable umpire might give PS, but maybe over the top? Discuss.
    2) Seems right to me.
    3) Seems right to me.
     
  5. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    1. Attacker didn’t have the ball so can’t see a PS. So it’s down to the YHTBT judgement of would the attacker have got it if the keeper hadn’t moved. So PC or play on. If the attacker had got the ball I can see a possible PS for deliberate foul against a player in possession.


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  6. Ian P.

    Ian P. FHF Starter

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    1. If the attacker "has the opportunity to play the ball" and the offence was intentional then it could actually be a PS, although it would take some guts to give it! My instinct is the reverse - no penalty on the basis that no disadvantage was caused (the attacker would likely have missed it anyway). But yes, YHTBT.

    2. Good call.

    3. I'd need more clarity as to what happened here. Did the defender leave the circle or attempt to play the ball?
     
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  7. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    The highlighted part is irrelevant - please see the rule below

    Ball falling to clear initial receiver, GK intentionally closes down and denies opportunity to fairly receive and play the ball. Textbook PS.

    A PC might be a sell if you deem the ball was too high to play but if he could take it down and/or have a shot in the air then a keeper running out 5m to stop the attacker taking the ball down to have a shot is not really "unintentional"
     
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  8. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    1) As above if the attacker could play the ball, he is the initial receiver, the GK running in to encroach the 5m to stop attacker taking the ball, it's a PS. If the ball couldn't be played, it's a PC under 12.3a. It could never be play on unless the attacker could play the ball and did so and you deemed the GK to not be influencing
    2) That's fine, so long as defender doesn't move out of the D until the ball goes 5m, if the ball hasn't gone 5m it should really be a PC
    3) Nope, he's not allowed to leave the D until the ball goes 5m, but he can shadow around inside the D

    To quote the briefing

     
  9. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    I take your point but the statement was he didn’t get the ball “despite his best efforts”. It’s YHTBT but that sounds to me like he wasn’t distracted by the keeper so not disadvantaged so play on. That would explain the umpire’s decision.
     
  10. F1-mania

    F1-mania FHF Legend

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    Personally I would be less inclined to give a PS if the attacker is trying to play the ball to the goal rather than to control it. From my (admittedly biased) view, the GKs intent at that point would be in closing down/saving the shot, rather than in encroaching on the ball. Equally, if playing to play it directly towards the goal, rather than to control it, I would consider it a quite difficult play to excute even without pressure, and thus would be more inclined to play on in the eventually of missing the ball. A reasonable interpretation, or does the manner of which the forward attempts to play the ball not change how this would be called? Obviously, large doses of YHTBT, but interested as I've done this once before and successfully argued to a downgrade of a PC in that instance.
     
  11. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Yes if the ball simply couldn't be reached and played, you'd probably play on, but my reading of the OP post was that it wasn't clear if he simply couldn't get it or if he could and messed up due to the keeper being there. If a player is receiving in the middle of the pitch and a defender encroaches, and they're put off, we'd blow, being in the D and the defender being a GK doesn't change that
     
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  12. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    The problem here is that the rules don't support your view.

    It doesn't matter if the attacker is trying to play it or control it, the PS rule is black and white

    Whether the keeper is trying to close down/save or encroaching doesn't matter, it's still a foul, the rules don't make an exception on the 5m rule for why the defender is encouraging, they either do or don't. If the keeper is intending to approach inside the 5m for whatever reason, it's an offence

    What you'll find outside of the top levels is umpires very unlikely to give a PS for anything outside a foot on the line scenario, how often do you see a club umpire in a seconds game give a PC for a massive stick tackle on the striker as he's about to shoot - the presence of a goalie or angle to goal are totally irrelevant, all it requires is the intentional foul against a player who has possession
     
  13. OldGitEd

    OldGitEd FHF Newbie

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    1) Points taken above. The receiver was at full stretch and attempted to play the ball from that height to score a goal.
    Let's have the same scenario, but this time the ball to the receiver will be much closer to the goals, say 4m. Where does the GK now go to not be within 5m of receiver or do we go FHD for a dangerous ball into a congested area?
    2) let's say the FHQ was 2m outside D and self-pass was taken away from D for 3-4m. The ball is now more than 5m away from the D. Surely the defender can now leave the D to play the ball? Of not?
     
  14. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    So in the scenario that he couldn’t reach he’s not the initial receiver and keeper can go right up to him.
     
  15. Ian P.

    Ian P. FHF Starter

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    Players "may not approach" within 5m. They may, however, be within 5m.
     
  16. Mick Mason

    Mick Mason FHF Top Player

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    If the GK and the receiver are 4 metres apart when the ball is falling towards them then the whistle should be blown early FHD. It is anywhere else on the pitch, in the circle shouldn't be any different.
     
  17. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    If he could have played the ball, he's still the initial receiver, if he could move and take it down he's still the initial receiver. If he couldn't play the ball, he's not and I'd be ok with play on

    GK can't vanish, the rules say if you're inside 5m, don't get involved, this is easily found if you get a copy of the rule book

    If the ball has gone 5m, yes he's allowed to leave the D, if it's simply 5m from the D when it started 1m from the D then it hasn't gone 5m.... Realistically speaking if the ball goes back that far, attacker should have enough time to do something with it or another defender engages
     
  18. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    PC, possibly PS+GC at the higher level and depending on what exactly "high above the head" or "best efforts" or "rushing towards" mean.
    Ball went a total of five metres while the defender waited. Play on, attacker shouldn't be so lazy about trying to win a PC next time.
    Terrible excuse. Ball has not gone five metres so the defender has to keep out of the way. PC and lucky not to go off as well.
     
  19. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Can we give 'just a green' to go with an upgrade penalty (PC in the 23, PS in the circle)?

    To my mind, either the upgrade is enough, for an offence which is somewhat deliberate, or careless enough to need discouraging, or a card is needed, because it appeared calculated or recklessly careless, in which case that would be yellow.

    As to the OP, a GK encroaching in such an unusual situation is thoughtless (didn't occur that there was a rule for this situation) and so PC, not PS.
     
  20. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    For me i call "you have the ball (insert colour), play on" followed by a whistle and "nah, no advantage there" if it turns out there was no real benefit .
    Another tactic is to hold off for a second from doing anything to try and get a better steer on which way things are going to transpire. That usually works better when the ball breaks loose. I tend to find players in posession who are being fouled benefit from reassurance that you can see their plight.
     

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