Who has olympic game torrents?

Discussion in 'Game Management & Communication' started by dodgeyumpires, Jan 6, 2009.

  1. dodgeyumpires

    dodgeyumpires FHF Regular Player

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    Anybody out there still have any of the olympic games on video? Was wondering how many umpires have them. Perhaps posing a few questions on decisions made... dadangre I say dangerous balls... and control measures.
    Anybody interested?
     
  2. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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  3. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    I have most of the mens.

    and its mostly australia playing.
     
  4. dodgeyumpires

    dodgeyumpires FHF Regular Player

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    Thanks red. Not quite what I ment though....
    I'll re-word... Try this if you have the Aus V Canada Mens game or have seen it

    Aus V Canada game - about 3 mins to go. Aerial pass from Can along the left field side. From about 25 - 25
    Canadian is the obvious receiver (IMO and umpires). Hammond (Aus player) comes running in and the two collide. A fight almost breaks out -or would if it were my team playing :p- Free hit to Canada, play on.


    1 - Is this the right call? Is the Canadian the initial receiver
    1a) Assuming it is, then in your opinion, Hammond running in - is it deliberate or accidental?
    1b) If it is deliberate, what penalty/s would you give?
    1c) If it is accidental, would you just give a free hit as the umpires did?

    2 - An exchange of words and a few shoves and people holding back people - It looks like it may get exciting
    2a)As the disengaged umpire what would you do?
    Go straight in there and help or wait for the engaged umpire to call you over to help out (Ive been yelled at for trying to help out other umpire once...)
    2b)At this point would you have done anything differently?
    2c) Do you think the umpires have done the right thing

    3) If the canadian player had been hit in the head from Hammonds stick and blood was gushing out everywhere, do you think anything would have been different or you would have made different calls?


    I figure most of the problems we have with answering players questions is that we wernt actually there and cant take into account all of the factors in play. I figure doing it this way were some people - hopefully most :) - will actually have the footage, that it may eliminate some of the problems that arise from players or umpires telling us the situation or from 'hyperthetical' situations.
    I dont mean this thread to pick up or point out international umpires errors, but merely to use it as a tool for myself and hopefully others to develop different ways of thinking about umpiring and strategies and hopefully, it may even help with a situation someone may come across at a later date when someone goes yep... we discussed that, i made up my mind what to do with that... and BAM! A yellow card comes out! ...or something like that :p

    Cheers
     
  5. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    ok my interpretations

    1) canada was under and should have preference to another player. Whistle could have gone earlier to signify that the player was running in...Im not sure where the umpire was to observe that.
    2) Hammond may be running in...not sure if his intent was ball or player. I think the umpire warned him politly after the whistle and with 3 minutes to go in a 6-1 game...a sending off isnt likely to effect an outcome.
    3) if its a deliberate foul and he had of hit the player in the head with a stick its an easy red card. it doesnt get simpler.
    4) I would have called it the same way as it didnt look intentional..maybe reckless....but not deliberate, I would also have asked him to keep his stick down below shoulder height...please.

    ok as a disengaged umpire.

    My first job is to assist in anyway my opposing umpire. I would find the nearest NON- aggresive player and ask them to move their players away. this would be both sides. I would move towards...but not into HIS or HER thing. the two jostling in front of the umpire ARE HIS or HER concern. the rest are mine.

    I dont think I could have done anything differently. my only concern is players seemed to ignore the umpires kind requests to stop the shenanigans, but they split apart...and at 3 minutes....not likely to kick off. If it was in the first half of a game I would call both captains and explain that THEY are responsible to control that. From the looks of it...both captains were doing the talking so the talk would be directed at them more than the other players. From the coaching ive been getting you dont need to get up in their face and tell em to knock it off...but the words you choose and your tone can better emphasise your point.

    The umpires did the right thing for that situation. in my opinion....which is sometimes really wrong.

    as for 3...ive answered that previously.
     
  6. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    There has been much discussion of this incident previously (Re: CAN v AUS - Match Comments) so I won't repeat the comments I made there about the initial decision.

    These issues have been discussed at length in the Umpiring Corner before in threads like Game descending into violence. I'll quote my initial comments in that thread in dealing with physical confrontations:

    As a team you should cover this scenario in your pre-game talk - not because it's likely to happen, but because one of those times you don't cover it, that's when it does. It's important to consider that the engaged umpire is in the middle of this emotional and frightening confrontation and is likely going to have trouble "taking names" so the proper punishments are meted out afterwards. Unless you are concerned for your colleague's and players' safety and that without your intervention something dangerous will happen, often the better assistance you can give is to get yourself close enough that you can intervene, but far enough away that you can see the "bigger picture" and catch everything that your colleague might miss.

    I'm going to assume that's rhetorical.

    In my experience, using video as a learning tool is an effective training method, but it's critical to understand that even the video view is only one alternative. Video also removes us from the feel and emotion of the game and fails to pick up on little conversations and body language used by the umpires to manage players. Things look different one the pitch from the umpires' angles, and that doesn't necessarily make their decisions "right" or "wrong". Focusing on alternatives will be productive.

    I believe that most of problems we have in answering players' questions is because they want to hear that the umpire was wrong. They're not interested in the decision-making process and the factors that need to be taken into account in every decision, because those are only of interest to people who want to make a better decision on a consistent basis in the future. Again, that's where our focus needs to be.
     
  7. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    very well put Keely...see I got it right....

    as any umpire, I was told to NEVER get involved in a scrap. If two players are bent on going for it.....take names and numbers and actions, and deal judgement when they have the red blood cooled a little....it also saves their anger being released on you.

    leaving the two angry players to mouth off at each other in control of the one umpire while maintaining control on the 20 other ones yourself is a great job for the disengaged umpire. the other are not angry and I really like that umpire and the way he controls the players during these olympics. Blasch i think his name is. I have endeavored to use his examples in getting rid of my policeman image and being more player friendly.

    A friend of mine had an incident at a hockey match that degenerated into a brawl between players spectators and anyone else that wanted to have fun. he just walked over to his co umpire and stood...taking notes. when they finally broke it off into running scraps....the teams composed themselves somewhat...the captains were called and both teams..ENTIRE teams...were given a 10 minute yellow card. both sat on their own 25 yard line and waited.

    One team has been banned for 5 years and the other was banned for a year or something.

    I will use your words of wisdom.
     
  8. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Just remember, my words of wisdom are a combination of being in this situation and doing it wrong (or poorly, probably a better word to describe it) and having some much smarter people pass one their wisdom to me.

    The particular point about not getting in the middle of a fracas was passed along by an Argentinean colleague who had seen more than their fair share of mêlées in their domestic league. I guess when you've seen as many games blow up as they have, you get smart!

    That advice came after my own mistake, getting in the middle of a few taller ladies grappling in the middle of an international match and failing miserably at getting anyone's number, particularly the player who started it all. My colleague was distracted by a less important group of players elsewhere on the pitch and wasn't paying attention to my courageous but stupid maneuvers in the scrum. The red cards were handed out after the game by the TD thanks to video evidence, and we were punished for our mistakes.

    So, it's not genius on my part - I'd be an idiot not to stand back and take numbers the next time and encourage others to do the same. :(
     
  9. Magpie

    Magpie Administrator
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    In support of Keely I posted on you tube a fracas that occurred during a grand final and it clearly shows the umpires stepping away and not getting involved.

    If you think about it if a player strikes an umpire even accidentally then their punishment will be severe, however it was the umpire who put themselves into a position to be struck so therefore who should shoulder some of the blame?
     
  10. David_Underdown

    David_Underdown FHF Regular Player

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    I'd tend to agree, but I note that in a couple of recent "You are the ref" pieces int eh Observer, a former senior football referee did suggest getting between two players who are squaring up.
     
  11. dodgeyumpires

    dodgeyumpires FHF Regular Player

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    Interesting... I completely agree with Keely, I thought it was deliberate.
    If I was umpiring (haha yeah right) and I was to make the call that I see (in front of me with the help of cameras :)) I would give yellow, call the other umppire over and Ask him to award a P.C.
    The other thing that convinced me was the tackle that he got green carded for was the same as a tackle he made earlier on in the game. (breakdown tackle about 30 secs before 1st half end..IMO)

    It wasnt a rhetorical quesetion... sorry if it seemed. i have never actually had any reall nasty accidents on the pitch so I have no idea how I would react, or what would have been different. :)

    On the decending violence, I think I have learnt a thing or two.
    I've been in my fair share of fights so have no problem stepping in to try and stop the fighting.

    Agreed. knowing full well the implications of hitting an umpire I think it would make them think twice about continuing fighting if I stepped in.
    But If i stepped into the middle of a fight, I would expect to get hit and I couldnt bring myself to card someone in that situation where I had deliberately stepped into stop the fight... It's asking for trouble... So agreed again.

    But alas, I think i will take Keely's way. I remember a really bad tackle, but somehow play managed to continue, a few more hacks, then advantage lead to a goal. i was stoked until it came to giving a card to the first bad tackle... I was so engrossed in watching the game continue I forgot who he was... That sucked. So yeah, I think I will sit back and take notes... Cheers



    One more...

    21 mins remaining in the first half. Aerial ball from Canadians, trapped by Aussies, we end up scoring.
    Abbot (Aus) running towards the circle. Ginger nut canadian behind him loses his footing and slightly touches the auusie.

    Lets just say he was a little closer and takes the aussie out or some infringement enough to not let him score. Whats the call?

    Again, curious to see whether you think it was deliberate or not... did he'lose his footing' or make an attempt to stop the player
     
  12. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    well I saw the incident.

    this has been occuring for awhile and I have been trying to stop the canadians doing it where possible.

    My initial posting for it was:
    http://www.fieldhockeyforum.com/index.php/topic,6158.0.html

    I cant linky like Keely so that will have to do.

    its a mixed bag and there is definatly some worms in there.

    as for the incident...it looked like he lost his balance. from another angle it could look like it was on purpose.

    I will ask..."ginger nut canadian" whether he did it on purpose or not.

    in regards to hammonds and kulars case. I did think it may have been a deliberate breakdown play...BUT then I have the benefit of watching it 10 times and from a top angle perspective.

    judging the umpires positioning on the tape, we would see two players coming together and not realise HOW CLOSE they actually were until the ball is played dangerously into Kular. this is why I would have blown earlier to avoid the problem quicker, but again I have the benefit of a tv camera all the time to think and even slow motion.

    I lost count how many times things like that happen are are missed in a game.

    wtih that out of the way...

    Dodgy...is this the ONLY game you have?

    Im only asking as there is alot of questions about one game and in a previous post it got very heated on bashing one team over another.
     
  13. dodgeyumpires

    dodgeyumpires FHF Regular Player

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    Interesting... hand in back topic.

    Cool, the incident looked like he lost his balance, sweet. Playing I have 'accidently lost' my stick at the right time as well, so not so much interested in what it looks like - more so what people thought about it/read the situation/feeelings about it...that sort of thing, and compare my thoughts.

    Agreed, we have the advantage of the camera, aboloutely correct. I'm not trying to say the umpire was wrong or anything like that at all, just saying from what I have in front of me, what I see in the game and on the cameras as well as the instant replays ;) I am trying to judge what I would have done with the visual material in front of me. So no def not on about the umpires decision.

    I suppose the real reason for it is I am creating a junior umpiring program for my association with absoloutely no resources what so ever. So I got the olympic torrents to help out. I have gone through a couple of them (all only recently) and got a few clips that I would like to show them... EG Safe aerial ball, unsafe... that was a good play on of the foot not needing to be penalised... that sort of thing. There is also a group of experienced umpires still umpiring at junior level who have started at senior level and am trying to get them to satrt thinking about them Deliberate V Accidental. So... you are my test bunnies!!! Questions and opinions that they may come up with, I am hoping you do so I will have some sort of answer to give them.

    Gingernut canadian... sorry :( Especially if you know him personally... I dont know any of the Australians either but the torrents I have the commentators are Aussie so say there names frequently :) Thats the only reason I named Hammond and the other guy

    As for the torrents I have quite a few and still looking for more, even some from the Azlan Shah cup tourney.
    Unlike the others who turned into team bashing I am an Aussie born, but now a Kiwi Umpire. With a bit of travelling and SLOWLY matiuring Ive learnt to respect other peoples points of views and opinions even though they are different from mine. So the last thing I want to see is people coming in and flaming the thread/each other, but I am actually really interested in what others see/think about the situations/scenarios
     
  14. Hockeyjon

    Hockeyjon FHF Regular Player

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    I have found at the 'elite' level if it looks like it could have been accidental, it PROBABLY wan'st. We have to remember representative teams/players spend a lot of time and resources on exploitiing the oppertunities of situations in a game and stopping the opposition from doing so. These small things can sometimes make the differance between success & failure.
    When Im umpiring top level hockey I tend to assume an action is deliberate UNLESS im absolutly certain it's not, like everyone else if I have not seen an incident I cant deal with it! But I let the players (captains) know of my instincts on the situation, hopefully that should put then on gaurd as they know I am.

    Unfortunatly when games desend into violence it usually stems from something the umpires are missing or have missed (I aknowledge this is not always the case through). I challange any umpire to claim a physical incident (Fight) in a match doesn't have a strong emotional effect on him/her.
    On the one occassion it has happend to me, I could'nt focus for a short time after due to me trying to identify, the spark that caused the incident to blow up (Players are only to helpful with this).
    I find players are reasonably appreciative of the fact that once blows, kicks, hits or spittals have been landed the player/s concerned have to go. Once the game is over and your debrief begins, that for me was the worst part of the whole incident, its an uncomfortable meeting you have to go thru to help you develop stratagies to cope with a similar incident in future.
     
  15. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Great comments jon, I think you're right on the mark.

    Short time? It took me around six months... :(
     
  16. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    I havent had a game decend into violence.

    I have had a game where 15 minutes of play...two silly tackles...on opposing teams and the benefits of advantage meant no whistle to stop it...

    once a whistle had blown the game decended into some form of crazyness.

    One team sustained a red card at exactly the same moment I gave a yellow card in front of the TD bench for a player calling me a rasict and tat its all racist bull^$#.

    the Td's didnt see what happended with the red and they say a player walking off. THey were trying to figure out what happended.

    the coach called the 9 man team over and in doing so stepped off the field....

    the other team decided the game was forfieted and left to the "bar"

    so I went over to the TD desk to help them and get the game going again...( I was informed it was the wrong thing to do) and was sent back onto the field.

    through all this chaos....I was so confused by the entire mess that I dwelt on it for a few months trying to figure it out. many emails to Steve Horgan (he was umpire manager) and I started to understand what I could have done...

    I still see myself as making the bad move by yellow carding a player and distracting the TD bench...it could have waited a few more seconds and then everyone would have been unconfused.

    I have learnt from it and moved on...if any player says anything during a carding offence I ask them to come over and we both watch the other umpire...when he is done...I then explain to my player that it was out of line...then I talk to my other umpire (with the TD if possible at the sideline) and EVERYONE is with knowledge.

    only had to do it once after that and Ive been able to control a game much better. I guess they are still scared of the policeman.
     

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