Conduct of play "Unofficial" rules on defence wall in D

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by Gingerbread, Dec 4, 2017.

  1. Willowsacorns

    Willowsacorns FHF Legend

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    My approach is a little less dramatic. I stop, shrug and give a knowing nod to the umpire who usually blows long, loud and hard joyously pointing with both arms to the goal.

    If only we could score from a PC but that’s a different problem.
     
  2. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    I suppose technically if you run in from more than 5m away to start up you might get a small advantage if the attack runs away from where you were initially but blowing a PC is harsh I agree no benefit gained
     
  3. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    I've seen it done a couple of times e.g. a team tactic for one person to touch the ball and another to run in (with the intent of passing it or dribbling it) and the defender in the D steps out / tackles and you have to give the PC - will only work once though. I think the player inside the D who steps out and doesn't make a tackle or obstruct giving away a PC is very harsh though
     
  4. phi11ip

    phi11ip FHF Top Player

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    Has anyone seen it?! I had one blown against me. I'm still bitter and I refuse to let it go! Foul 2m outside of the D, I (incorrectly) stepped back into the D to defend. Attacker touches the ball. PC. Gotcha, sucks to be me, etc...!

    Turns out it's a bit of a technicality and also completely pointless of me to stand there in the first place, but it's a pain in the backside when you get stung like that. I'm hoping they'll clear things up with the next rules update as some bits are still rather confusing.
     
  5. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Sounds a bit pedantic given rule 13.2b says so long as you don't interfere with the taking or play/attempt to play the ball it doesn't need to be held up and as the attacker can't go directly into the D, no foul really needs to be blown. I'm also not convinced, unless I'm reading the rules incorrectly, that a player inside 5m can't step into the D, they only are specifically banned if more than 5m away
     
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  6. Folmer

    Folmer FHF All Time Great

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    This was discussed in this thread. Apparently if you were within 5 but outside the D you are not allowed to step into the D and set up a block there. That is according @redumpire and his FIH connections. A lot of disagreement going on there, but that is how (at this moment) is should be blown.

    Considering the discussions still going on about this issue I think the whole rule needs a lot of cleaning-up. But until that is done we need to blow it according current interpretation.
     
  7. mcu2blue

    mcu2blue FHF Newbie

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    Previously my view was in line with those of @Pippinn and @Hacker. The rule and guidance are pretty clear and if you weren't inside the D and within 5m of the offence when it happened defenders need to stay at least 5m away. However, the more I think about this issue the more I'm inclined towards the views expressed by @Diligent and @Bondy. I'm not convinced that defenders necessarily gain an advantage by setting up just inside the D on these hits just outside and then shadowing round the D until the ball has travelled 5m. I also understand why there is a lot of debate about this. If we're trying to encourage flow and allow quick free hits it defeats the objective if you have to spend 10 seconds getting a defender to retreat to 5m because they've run in to a blocking position from outside of the D.
    Even the video clip on EH's hockey hub which illustrates rule 13.1 Location of a free hit, shows an offence blown on the edge of the D and a defender then running in from outside of the dotted line to set up just inside the D.
     
  8. Hacker

    Hacker FHF Legend

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    For clarity I didn’t say I agree with the rule, I just try and enforce the existing ones (please bring back enforced foul rule)!! Tactically you only need 1 player there to block the direct route into the circle.
     
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  9. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    But there is no direct route into the circle, the ball has to go 5m, in the time a player has moved the ball 5m, either on the spot or dribbling left and right, a player can run in from over 5m and tackle legitimately
     
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  10. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    I would argue further that as a result of what you said @Gingerbread, there is a tactical advantage to be gained by the defence of having any players who are within the circle AND within 5m being offset from the direct line-to-goal such that they are placed in a way which encourages the ball carrier to carry the ball out wide. I would ask them to set themselves inside the line to goal and as such make it feel easier for the ball carrier to step wide with the ball and into a slightly easier to defend position.
    (Whether my defenders will listen to a word I say is a matter for debate.)
     
  11. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Yeah we just ensure fair play, not whether the defence action is sensible or not!
     
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  12. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    Yea, I was speaking with my Goalie hat (Helmet) on there.
     
  13. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Regular Player

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    Out of the two technicalities (defender within 5 outside hopping in or defender inside but more than 5 moving within 5) I er on the side of letting that go, it's the more common of the two, but as so many other umpires I see don't blow it, it just creates a huge stink with the players if it's brought up and nobody comes down on a Saturday to argue with the umpire over a lesser known technicality. It's far easier to explain the other one as it's more clearly defined and I can simply point it out to a player after a game.

    I'd be bitter too, no warning and straight pc is just obnoxious gotcha umpiring.

    Sent from my VFD 710 using Tapatalk
     
  14. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    If you are giving heavy penalties for little understood technicalities, it can often be a sign that you are not managing the game sufficiently before they arise.
    Inexperienced umpires often have enough on their hands remembering the rules and spotting empirical infractions without having to devote mental resources to pre-infraction management. It comes with experience i guess.
     
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  15. phi11ip

    phi11ip FHF Top Player

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    Good luck telling them that! It's frustrating enough when you get blown up for something like this, and so, so many people get carded because they argue back and 'these umpires' are the sorts to just wind players up further.
     
  16. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    I suspect trying to have that conversation with an inexperienced/poor umpire in or a round the game is going to be more or less fruitless.
    The best thing you can hope for, if you have a good rapport with them off-the-pitch, then tell them you have some feedback and if they are happy to receive it, then do so objectively and constructively. Otherwise we probably just need to suck it up and hope they learn from other sources.
    I am lucky, there are experienced umpires who I can draw on for feedback, and I am privileged that there are a few inexperienced umpires who look to me for advice. But I have also been party to situations where advice is neither wanted not appreciated. Nothing good comes from those situations sadly.
     

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