Conduct of play "Unofficial" rules on defence wall in D

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by Gingerbread, Dec 4, 2017.

  1. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Rulebook is very clear, if there is a FH in the 23m near the D, defenders who were in 5m can stand in the D inside 5m and even form a wall if needs be (so long as they don't run in from more than 5m away to create this and so long as time isn't stopped for injury).

    I've had a game where my colleague told a team they cannot have more than 2 people (regardless) in the wall (same colleague who did the 2 GC for subs during PC). I've also been told by someone who does TD for National League they don't allow wall building either.

    Are there any unofficial interpretations about this action (assuming 2+ players were inside the 5m when the foul happened) so all could legitimately stand there if they wish to (ignoring if it's a good idea or not)
     
  2. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Not that I'm aware of...
     
  3. Trig

    Trig FHF Legend

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    None whatsoever!

    If the entire team wanted to line up, not a problem for me. Maybe for them, but not for me!!!
     
  4. george

    george FHF Starter

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    I don't see any form of wall built. I'm a little confused by the interpretation now on the back of this discussion.

    Extract from 13.2
    Players inside or outside the circle who were 5 metres or more from the point of the free hit at its award are not allowed to move to and then remain in a stationary position within 5 metres of the ball as the free hit is taken.

    Does this text not prevent the building of a wall? I have been counting the number of defenders inside the circle within 5 at award, and ensuring that is the maximum number when the hit is taken.

    Help!

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  5. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    If you imagine a scenario where say 4 players (1 attack, 3 defence) are in close proximity, ball holder is fouled, if the 3 are inside the 5m they are allowed to stand in the D and create a wall (as far as the rules say)
     
  6. george

    george FHF Starter

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    Agreed, if there were 2 defenders within 5 as foul occurred, then 2 maximum. Etc.

    We are in agreement that extras cannot be recruited to the wall?

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  7. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Yes the rule you quoted is correct - players cannot run in from more than 5m away to take part

    Also worth noting that there is another rule if time is stopped for injury (or for carding etc)

     
  8. george

    george FHF Starter

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    Yes. Not to be used as a cop-out by umpires. It makes the whole scenario easier to manage.

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  9. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    It's worth mentioning that a wall is of no use whatsoever? The ball has to travel before it can be played into the circle and the wall will immediately become obsolete. If defenders want to waste resources in this way, they are making their own life difficult. With my GK hat on, I would be rather unhappy with a defence which set up like this.

    For me it would come under the same thing as not penalising a team who is losing for time-wasting unless they were being truly ridiculous. They are penalising themselves and their opponents are benefiting without your intervention.
     
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  10. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    That's why I said "(ignoring if it's a good idea or not)" as it obviously isn't worth doing but banning something like that is unnecessary if it's not in the rule book
     
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  11. SnoopyDo

    SnoopyDo FHF Newbie

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    We interpret the rule here as 'those that were within the circle but not 5 are allowed to stay within 5 AND are allowed to shadow(from inside the circle) the ball, but must not interfere with either the ball or player until the ball has travelled 5'
    As for others running up and joining those within the 5, wouldn't this be a deliberate offence with either a PC awarded or at least stop and reset the FH with everyone 5?
     
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  12. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Would it be a PC? I can't see why, provided the crowd or wall of defenders stays within the circle, without attempting to play the ball or otherwise interfere until it has travelled 5, then there is no disadvantage - play continues.

    It seems to me to be a vestigial rule. It seemed important when they were framing the rules, but has proved to have no relevance. It can be safely ignored, left to wither, and be removed in some future edition of the book.

    Has anyone seen the rule enforced, either by holding play while selected defenders move back where they should be, a stop time and everyone 5, or with a PC (Gotcha!)? Not me.
     
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  13. The chief

    The chief FHF Legend

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    I awarded a PC for this a few weeks ago, but it had escalated into the defender who came and joined in from nowhere having an argument with me about how he knew the rules because he was an umpire. Wasn't going to start arguing back, and didn't see why I should have to explain the rules to him, so just upgraded. He still wanted to talk about it (politely enough for me to not need to GC him), so I told him we would discuss it after, which we did.
    It turned out that he thought that I was saying that nobody was allowed to be within 5, but in the heat of the moment he wasn't actually listening to the words that were coming out of my mouth. All were friends at the end.

    For what it's worth, when I'm playing (in goal), I encourage my defenders to always be 5 metres away so that they can engage with the taker straight away. Quite high risk though if you haven't forewarned the umpire.
     
  14. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Regular Player

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    For the first occasion I usually go with "player you must retreat 5" to which I usually suffer the response "they can stand there" from almost all the players on both teams, at this point I quickly explain that they weren't 5 to start with and I'll explain it in full later. Although last time the other umpire interrupted my explanation by stopping time to explain it in full meaning no one could now shadow.

    I must agree it will hopefully disappear at some point.

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  15. Hacker

    Hacker FHF Legend

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    I pulled a defender back on Weds in a BUCS game. He had come in from more than 5 and set up on edge of the D. When I explained after the game he was quite happy
     
  16. Bondy

    Bondy FHF Legend

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    Agree with @Diligent that this rule has largely become superfluous.

    Surely the whole point of allowing a player to be within 5m while inside the circle, is acknowledgment that they are not influencing play by being there. So if they're not influencing play, why does it matter if someone steps in from outside the 5m? Personally I think there's generally a lot more important things happening around the edge of the circle, so I never bother to try to keep track of where all the players were when the whistle was blown. As long as the FH is in the right spot and no-one interferes before they're allowed to - I would personally only interfere in this if a defender obviously runs in from miles away. If someone steps in from 6m away, I probably ignore it on the grounds of no benefit gained by the offender.
     
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  17. Willowsacorns

    Willowsacorns FHF Legend

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    I love this rule because it is so ridiculous and so very poorly understood. It’s good for at least a couple of PCs a game.

    Common issues - players engaging early, players stepping out of the D having been within 5, players forming said wall when they were more than 5 away.

    It is much fun to take the free hit walk slowly to or around the D and wait to be tackled.
     
  18. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Presumably until such time as someone who was 5m away from the hit comes and tackles you legitimately?
     
  19. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    That's when you drop your stick, turn to the umpire and appeal like Nathan Lyon appealing an LBW: Front lunge position, both hands raised straight in the air, yelling like an idiot. Lyon appealing.jpg
     

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  20. Willowsacorns

    Willowsacorns FHF Legend

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    That has happened - I ran back and gave the assailant/tackler a pat on the back to say well done!

    But it happens very rarely - more often the defender who was within five gets over eager in seeing a team mate engaging and jumps in first.
     
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