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Discussion in 'England Hockey' started by Willowsacorns, May 14, 2014.

  1. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    This.

    *red faced, sputters, we don't pay any of our players*

    *press release: "Player X will join coach Y on the staff of private school Z"
     
  2. Seive

    Seive FHF Top Player

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    haha! I take your point but there is big difference between a club paying someone a chunk of cash and a club helping someone with their career via their members connections.
    As I said in my original post- given the men's central funding is likely to be cut and the rumours of their programme being cut to 2/ 3 days per week from 5 , any centralised or aspiring centralised player will need to find support elsewhere.
     
  3. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    Why is it different? I'd describe both as the point you move from amateur to semi-pro.

    Providing things to the player rather than charging them subs, whether it is accommodation, car, money over the usual rate for coaching, a job, or outright money for playing, it's all the same thing, viz an incentive to choose your club.
     
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  4. Seive

    Seive FHF Top Player

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    I'm sorry but it is different in my opinion for the following reasons:

    1) Team Culture- Cash in your pocket Vs working/ earning it breeds a very different culture within the team between the haves and have not's especially when the performance drops.
    2) Player Culture- If all you base your decision on as a player is how much cash you get then it is a race to see whose wallet is bigger. Where as understanding a players long term goals beyond hockey and helping their future career prospects is ultimately more valuable and costs you nothing as a club .
    3) Sustainability- Providing players with coaching work means they earn their keep and re-invest in the club and it's infrastructure. There are many documented cases of big wallets turning up at clubs and 5 years down the line the money dries up and the club falls apart.

    There are many more and I don't have time for a full diagnostic here but these are my initial thoughts. You might be right on the shift from amateur to semi-pro but the fact remains we are not talking life changing sums of money so it is perhaps an overstatement of fact to use a black and white definition such as that.
     
  5. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    Everybody using financial incentives will have their own reasons for why they use the ones they do. And that is their look out.

    What I find a little off is all the criticising that goes on for another club for using a different method within what is essentially the same thing. Many people talk about Holcombe like they are somehow "cheating" when we all know full well many other clubs are providing incentives.
     
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  6. Willowsacorns

    Willowsacorns FHF Legend

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    As @FatForward was having a little tongue in cheek comment so did I. Most clubs offer something, some in the East Conference (the league I am most familiar with) pay considerably more than some Prem clubs for players.

    You can like it you can hate it but all have to accept it.

    I am just happy that there remain a large number of quality players who value team spirit, quality coaching, excellent facilities and good times over £ - mainly because I have no £!
     
  7. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    ££££ I'm making a nice little East Conf earner from fines for cards ££££

     
  8. Willowsacorns

    Willowsacorns FHF Legend

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    We deal in drinking fines no cash!
     
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  9. FatForward

    FatForward FHF Top Player

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    I want to make it less subtle.
    Wimbledon, Surbiton and H&W are wealthy clubs and are able to 'facilitate' their 1st team players earning enough money for that to be a contributing factor.
    Holcombe have quite specific issues in the lack of hockey playing schools in the surrounding areas. The 1st team are active in training during the week to raise the standard of junior hockey.
    Any team that has George Pinner and Dan Fox in it doesnt have to work too hard on player culture - my son often has me in stitches with their latest banter.
     
  10. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    And you're fair enough to do so. Anyone thinking it's possible to have a level playing field is either having a laugh or forgetting their own position of privilege. No private schools near us, nor money from benefactors (as no older members). Do I go "woe is me"? No, because I've lucked out with central London catchment & a natty stadium. We have privilege and I reckon so does pretty much everyone in regional Prem & up in some sort of way.

    We all use our various advantages to market our clubs and that is exactly how it should be. What is particularly encouraging is when that is then used to grow the game (or at least - that's my main interest). It is pretty visible that Holcombe have built both facilities and participation.
     
  11. Willowsacorns

    Willowsacorns FHF Legend

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    You are right @FatForward they are wealthy and they do facilitate. You are however, I would venture, wrong that Pinner/Fox are the pinnacle of witty banter and facilitators of culture.

    One thing I would say though is that as @Stuart Burnside has said a few times it is an annoyance that so many now think they should be paid. I do consider that a direct result of the salaries paid by Holcombe. For example the most recent cash deal in our conference would tend to put one player on the equivalent of a £250k annual salary if calculated on an hourly basis.
     
  12. FatForward

    FatForward FHF Top Player

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    I was just trying to clarify the dressing room is a happy/chirpy place .
    Anyhow thats a cracking friendly at Holcombe Park on 21st Jan to get the outdoor season creaking into action again. I presume you will be in attendance .
     
  13. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    Last Saturday, as I walked off pitch (I won't say where) I was basically accused of cheating by parents of the oppo & (worse) a coach. Because the team they'd just lost to wasn't the team they'd beaten at the start of season. It was very unpleasant.

    Now why is that? Well, we pick our teams in order of strength, as the league rules require. Because we are a club that takes new joiners all year round, we rarely have exactly the same team in the lower leagues by the time you get to Christmas.

    So, it's not cheating, but it is another (far more affluent) club hating on our "privilege", which is access to pitches and population density, plus frankly a bit of marketing ability, which we are using mainly to grow & we are "making" many new adult hockey players from scratch (I find few other clubs understand the production of an adult hockey player through anything other than youth). Particularly disappointing considering the kids had been an absolute credit to their club keeping their heads up despite losing.

    Why do I reference this here? Well because one of my greater frustrations is how bad we all are at cooperation off pitch, and how willing we are to slag each other off for using some form or other of privilege. That experience, I guess, allows me to empathise a bit with Holcombe, who in some eyes seem to be some sort of bogie man. For, erm, the offence of....investing in hockey?!

    You are quite right, I get deeply exasperated by being asked by often quite mediocre players for money / accommodation / jobs / whatever. And none of them have done any research on Wapping or me to allow them to make a proposal that would interest me. I say, why should I pay you, what do I get? And they say they play in my 1st team. So I say does that get me more money from spectators or prize money? And there the conversation ends.

    However, none of that is a criticism of others who choose to pay / arrange incentives. My exasperation is people asking me for money more than it is others spending. More admin time. Someone else does it? I don't run their club, and they have obviously found a reason why it is a good thing to do that. Often that is because they are trying to inspire / improve growth, and fair play if so. People investing in hockey is a good thing.

    But I don't, personally, think it started with Holcombe. I've seen plenty of rental South Africans and similar way way before Id heard of Holcombe.
     
  14. ironman

    ironman FHF Top Player

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    I think the major gripe with Holcombe initially was people didn't quite understand what they were up to as apart from the registrations showing up on the EH website they went about their business very quietly - I think most accept it now and get on with it. I can understand that as when trying to be more transparent recently they end up tripping themselves up a bit. I think David South should just say "I want to win the EHL and will keep on spending on the 1st XI until we get there (and produce a decent crop of home grown players)".

    Apr 2015 - However, South makes no apologies for the upset his investment has caused, saying he wants to return Holcombe to its community foundations in the coming years. "It's not win or bust. It must be sustainable," he says. "Each year, we need to drop away a paid player and replace them with our own so we get back to a sustainable proportion."


    15/16 - Signs Ashley Jackson and Sam Ward

    Aug 2014 “We have made a definite decision to sign Great Britain players. It’s an investment into England Hockey and we have no budget for overseas players”

    16/17 - Signs Jonty Robinson (SA) and James Day (Aus) + David Ames

    Personally, I don't see a problem with Holcombe's spending. Hopefully it will mean other clubs take a look at themselves and work out how to make the best out of the 'privileges' that @Stuart Burnside refers to.
     
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  15. MKochar

    MKochar FHF Legend

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    There have been individual clubs who have always found a way of helping people out!

    Even Reading managed to get Austin Smith as a sports resident for 4 years at Bradfield College. Once upon a time Brighton payed for 3 decent Saffa's, Fareham put money the way of imports.
    Surbiton have their ways of 'looking after' players, as have Cannock, Canterbury, Beeston.

    This has gone on for +20 years, even Hounslow in their heyday managed to find a way of 'looking-after' Bobby Crutchley from Sheffield, Jon Potter from York, and Firebrands found a way of making uni life in Leeds 'easier; for Simon Mason!

    This has gone one, in one way or another, for decades. How they are 'looked after' is down to individuals and clubs - but please please please let this one go.
    Its not new, its not unfair, it is what it is!

    Deal with it.
     
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  16. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    Quite. I hear some of those players were even paid above the average rate to mow the pitch :p
     
  17. FatForward

    FatForward FHF Top Player

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    Junior section has doubled in the last 3 years. It takes time but change is coming. As a 'development team' captain the difference quite visible.
     
  18. careeman

    careeman FHF Legend

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    Indian Gymkhana have been particularly active according to their social media accounts. About 5 new / returning signings so far. And still counting by the looks of it.

    Any other confirmations or gossip out there?
     
  19. MKochar

    MKochar FHF Legend

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    Nothing on their tweets!
     
  20. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    It's on their Facebook.

    No great surprise to see lots of IG transfers.
     

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