Stroke in a game - this is messy

Discussion in 'PS and Goalkeeping' started by keo13, Oct 10, 2008.

  1. keo13

    keo13 FHF Starter

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    My coach approached me and our other coach at practice to describe the following occurrence from the previous night's local high school match. He hasn't ever played at a competitive level, only coached high school for 25 years and umpired some, and the league's umpires seem to *play by different rules than in the part of the country I'm from*cough*don't have a very good grasp of rules or the mentoring structure to develop well*cough*.

    Situation:

    High school game, penalty stroke is awarded.
    There is a weak player in net so one of the defenders takes the shot. They put on the left and right blockers and the helmet. The player saves the shot (I think - but it was a "no goal" for sure).
    After the game, the opposing team's coach (who took the stroke) appeals - arguing against getting to use the blockers.
    The umps decide that the use of blockers was not appropriate - and decide to award a repeat penalty stroke. The ball goes in.

    So: what is wrong with this situation?

    The way I see it: the defender was on the field - legitimate for them to stand in net. The blockers are legitimate - I've never heard anything stating that MORE padding couldn't be worn, only that at least the helmet must be worn. Appealing a decision 15/20 minutes to goodness knows how long later - I thought it had to be the captain, and immediately after the call. Awarding another penalty stroke - my understanding is either it counts as a goal or not, you don't get a second chance (ie shot, GK drops stick and makes a save but the ball was going in the net otherwise - it's a goal, or ball breaks in half, half goes in - it's not a goal, you don't get to retake the shot).

    Am I right or wrong (for each)? Would it change if: the defender wore all the padding instead of just the kickers? the shooter shot the ball wide of the net?

    Thanks,
    Keo
     
  2. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    according to the NFHS (assuming its american High school..its not clear in your post)

    Shirt color different then
    both teams, full mask-helmet,
    leg pads, chest and wrap around
    throat protectors and gloves
    or hand protectors required.

    According to NFHS rules you MAY NOT have a kicking back AT ALL.

    NOW that being said.

    FIH rules 13.5 sub: f
    If the player defending the stroke must is a goalkeeper, they must wear protective headgear; if the player defending the stroke is otherwise taking part in the game as a field player, they may wear only a face mask as protective equipment.

    Now....It looks like the umpire had the right idea....the player ACTUALLY defending the stroke...should have played WITHOUT the blockers and just caught the ball ---
    as rule 13.6 ( a penalty stroke is completed when) sub: b the ball comes to rest inside the circle, lodges in the goalkeepers equipment, is CAUGHT by the goalkeeper, or oges outside the circle.

    The appealing WAY later is against the NFHS rules that once a centre pass is taken...ALL goals are final.

    The defender IF playing on the field shouldnt be able to change with the goalkeeper (as in wear all padding)....but you could use a backup goalie for this purpose.

    as for last question..I think I answered to the best I can regarding that.

    This is with the latest set of rules I have for all three hockey competitions in the states. WISH they would just make it easy to view their updated ruleset.
     
  3. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Now on the understanding that USA high school and college hockey adjust some rules, the FIH rules for PS defenders are:

    Full-kit goalkeepers must wear pads and kickers and helmet, and may wear the other GK kit - Rule 4.4a. They can save with any part of their body.

    Players-in-a-different-colour-shirt (option b GK, aka kicking back) must wear a helmet, but otherwise dress as field players; in particular 4.4b says only a full-kit GK can wear hand protectors etc. They can save with any part of their body. Interesting that 13.5f lets the GK catch the PS - I wouldn't say Rule 10.2 allows a catch in open play.

    Field players may wear a face mask, not a helmet, and may only save with their stick.
     
  4. Folmer

    Folmer FHF All Time Great

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    First off, I don't know any specific US rules, just what the FIH says.

    The rules applicable are:

    So in short: The substitution of the full GK to a defender is legitimate. This defender may ONLY use protective headgear. So in your case if the defender makes a save wearing gloves he has made a foul, so a goal should have been awarded. (13.7c)

    But because the umps were apearently having an off day, they allowed this and no goal was scored. As soon as the whistle has blow to end the PS and the match has restarted, this decision cannot be reversed by the umps at any time.

    What can be done (afaik) is that the attacking team files an official complaint. Then the committee must hear both sides of the story and the umps and from that decide weather the call was correct or not.
    In the cases when a call concerning a PS is contested (also if one should have been awarded) this must be made know to the umps directly after the match. Then the PS may be taken (over) at that moment and the result must show in the complaint form. This way the committee can take that result into their ruling.
    In your case the taking over is not applicable as the rules clearly state that a goal should have been awarded.

    There is no way that after the final whistle has been blown the result can be altered by an ump.
     
  5. keo13

    keo13 FHF Starter

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    Canadian high school... Ontario too. I'm not sure what the local high school rules are here though.

    Thanks Folmer - that better answers my questions.

    I must re-ask though, what if the player had shot wide of the net?
     
  6. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Hey Keo,

    I agree with Folmer except as in regarding the complaint process. Under FHC regs decisions made by the umpires in applying the rules of hockey stand on the pitch regardless. Appeals can and should be filed after technical errors (ineligible roster player, pitch not up to specification, etc.) only. Anything else like the awarding or not awarding of penalty goals is an in-game decision under the rules and not subject to appeal (unless non-FIH or FHC rules or regulations are in effect).

    If the ball had gone wide, you could argue that the attacking team was not disadvantaged by the GWOPH also having blockers available to them, but it's not a very strong argument.

    Just remember that if the substituted defender had put on a helmet, a different shirt, and legguards and kickers, that would have been fine. Because she didn't she was not a GK but a GWOPH and thus could not put on blockers.
     
  7. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    GWOPH ? :baffled:
     
  8. Resslys Agent

    Resslys Agent FHF Starter

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    a Keelyism?
     
  9. Folmer

    Folmer FHF All Time Great

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    Goalkeeper With Only Protective Headgear
    DUH! :p :nerd:
     
  10. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Thank you Folmer. :)
     
  11. bigpez5

    bigpez5 FHF Regular Player

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    yer from my understanding a ruling that has happened on the field stands (obviously the other umpire could assist and maybe over rule a decision) but definetly once the game has finished i thought all on pitch matters were final
     
  12. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    Thank you. I was sure the GWOPHs were allies of the Daleks. - GKWFPEs often llook like they could be
     
  13. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    was there something wrong with my answer?
     
  14. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    You answered very well foozbear.

    But on FHF it seems one good answer is never enough. :sorry:
     
  15. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Are you looking for a critique of this reply? It included a lot of information on US high school rules, and Keo's situation happened in Canada. Folmer clarified things better without the irrelevant information that confused the issue a bit. I then added a bit of confirmation of FHC-specific rules.

    No big deal - just making things more clear.
     
  16. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    well thank you for the response.

    The OP didnt actually state WHERE they were from till after.

    thats why I included ALL rulesets I knew of.

    I just get concerned about silly things I guess.
     

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