Should every game have a clean slate?

Discussion in 'Game Management & Communication' started by CardHappy, Oct 23, 2008.

  1. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    In another thread I made a TIC comment about "setting up a playerin a future game" :rolleyes:
    However, this lead to a few comments that each game should "be a clean slate".

    Personally, I don't agree with this. I spend some time "researching" teams I have never umpired before, ranging from watching them play a match , asking for dvds, speaking to colleagues who have umpired them, even speaking to players of other teams about them. This all goes into the computer and whirrs around for a bit and gives me an idea of what I'm up against.

    If I have umpired the team a number of times before, there is no real need for this as I have frist hand experience. Players and coaches use prior knowledge of their opposition, so why shouldn't umpires?!"

    Yes, the control laddder MUST ALWAYS be reset.. but does it always have to be as long ?

    For example after watching a certain ladies NL team use the forehand leading edge (and get away with it :angry:) I decided to let the skipper and coach know (a good hour before the game) that it would not be tolerated AT ALL. Strangely enough, not used once!!

    I would be interested to see what your comments are...
     
  2. Handmedown

    Handmedown FHF Regular Player

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    It can't hurt by being prepared of whats likely to happen in a game, but at the end of the day - you have to call what you see in front of you. If you know of a player that has a reputation for making bad tackles, the more you are going to think about it during the game when you should be focusing on the play. As long as you apply the rules fairly and consistently whilst allowing the game to flow and most importantly staying in control of the game, then I have no problem with pre-match preparation such as this. If it helps control the game, then I'm all for it, however you have to be prepared of the consequences that it might have in your decision making process. For me personally I prefer to deal with the action not the person - if I don't like something, I remove it from the game through being strict and letting the players know its not on. I don't however adjust my tolerance levels against certain players, teams or offenses, you become too unpredictable and inconsistent as an umpire. I call what I see and don't go looking for things to penalise - it helps me stay focused.
     
  3. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    You might have guessed that I'd comment on this CH... :rolleyes:

    Yes the control ladder does have to be as long - and equally long for both teams - otherwise it's unfair. Example: you umpire team A, who you know well, and yellow card player Z for persistent bad tackling. Two weeks later you have team A again, playing against team B, who you've never seen before. Player X from team B commits a couple of bad tackles early on. You go from a strong whistle to a stronger whistle accompanied by an appropriate gesture and/or facial expression to say "cut it out". Then he does it again and you show him a green card. Meantime your mate player Z commits his first bad tackle (after player X's first one, for the sake of argument) and, using your pre-ordained knowledge of his style, you jump to a green card straightaway.

    So, player X gets three bites at the cherry before being shown a card; player Z only gets one. Not only is that unfair, but it also creates a player management issue for you and your colleague as team A now perceive (correctly) that you are treating them differently from team B. Why make things so difficult for yourself?

    Human nature means that we will all have prejudices about all the players that we meet on the pitch after the first time we see them playing, but, in my opinion, we owe it to the players to try to start each game with a clean slate and to treat them all equally.

    I'd be interested to hear what others have to say though...
     
  4. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    Hook line sinker!

    I agree 100% with you on this Red. The ladder, should be as long.


    Not so sure on this one, I agree that for the benefit off the entire game (ie. All the players on the pitch plus any spectators/dogs) you have to deal with certain actions. However, MAN MANAGEMENT is exactly that (unless you umpire womens hockey), by carding people what are you trying to achieve...? A change in behaviour. Different people react in different ways... some players react better to "A bollo*ing" others a gentle tap on the shoulder and a gentle reminder.

    I suppose what I'm trying to say is both person and the action are equally important..

    The most important part of a game for an umpire is the first few minutes.. Clever players push the boundares straight away.. teams are feeling each other out as well as the umpires... isn't it better to be prepared for this?

    Are the rules enforced less in the first few minutes of the game than the last? Shouldn't they be enforced more?
     
  5. Resslys Agent

    Resslys Agent FHF Starter

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    Conversely, players amd sometimes even teams have prejudices about umpires and their styles!
    I personally have a well-known on-going management issue with a certain player. Saturday gone was no different, he constantly questioned every decision, some that my colleague made but it was my fault, apparently!
    I did everything to keep him on the pitch, up 10, reversed hits until about the 10th one when I issued the yellow card!
    He was going to get 5 minutes, with 19 minutes of the second half played. this then increased to 10 as he kept chuntering whilst suspended. He asked how long he had left so I said 1 more minute, at which point he threw his stick, so I said 'another 5!', meaning we would return with 1 minute of playing time left! At this point he left the pitch, so when his suspension was up the coach asked can I bring a player on, at which point I said 'No, your suspended player's not available!'
    I spoke to the captain after the game about his players' behaviour and he admitted that there was little that he could do and he'd tried, so I suggested dropping him to which I was told 'I'm not going to do that!'

    So back on topic but if umpires know certain teams do certain things and adjust their style, surely certain teams and players who get to know umpires would adapt what they do when certain umpires are umpiring their team.
     
  6. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    I did much of my umpiring " for" my club team.
    Over time I got to know well the play of most of the top players in the association

    It was a delight occasionally to get away and umpire a field full of players I didn't know

    Also interesting to umpire with strangers. :p
     
  7. Steveo

    Steveo FHF Newbie

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    I agree with Resslys on this, though I would like to think that I, personally, only use them in positive ways (I have been a part of teams who have tried to exploit them in not so positive ways :sorry:). For example, last weekend, I knew that one of the umpires in my match had a real "thing" about people using the edge of the stick on the reverse - even though it's legal - and would more often than not call it as a back-stick. As I knew this going into the game, I was able to adjust my playing style so as to avoid any incidents - he had previously given a PC against me for this, so I didn't want to take any chances! :no:

    I can see how it can be very hard for umpires; I'm sure most people can name teams from their leagues who have a bad reputation, and I know it's always something I take into account when playing against a team, but I agree that every match should be started with a clean sheet.
     
  8. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

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    Every match should be a clean slate for all, players and umpires. It was pointed out that we are human so we will react as humans do.
    I agree with redumpire the route taken by cardhappy will and i am sure does add to the feeling of hurt and persecution.

    In my experience we have a real gulf between the players and the officials. It is up to all to try and reduce this lack of respect for each other.
    Everyone involved is doing their best for the good of THEIR game not really for the good of the game.
    We have separate teams now, Coaching, players and the umpires.
    When i was young this was not the case every one got on together and when the match was over no matter what happened, fights, words etc we did not let it come between all involved in the game even at international level.
    This has really changed, in the past even at international tournaments players, coaches and umpires got together after matches. Now it is so different. The last tournamnet i was at the umpires had a seperate hotel and i never actually spoke to any umpires except to shake hands at the start and at the end.
    I am not sure about all tournaments but i still feel that the 'bar time' is really important and players, coaches and umpires need dialogue.
    This is a big ask as at a tournament with the preparation for the next match starting nearly at the final whistle of the match just ended.
    I do feel that coaches and umpires really need to talk at all levels but especially at this level. The them and us attitude has to go.

    At club level this distrust of the other teams involved in the sport is very prevelent i have found having been all over the UK and Ireland watching hockey.
    I have not found the same type of feelings on the continent especially in Spain, Holland and Germany.
    I found that yes they did have an umpiring team but dialogue, after a match was still very evident and even if heated no one seemed to hold a grudge or bad feeling.
    Maybe it is the level of professionalism in the game, as the teams become more professional, fitter, faster, have more tecnology and can break games down to even finer details.
    This maybe is what has led to this distrust develop, the coaches and players can see all the umpires errors and the seemingly lack of responsibility taken by the officials. Plus the arrogance showen by some officials, players and coaches has also really helped this situation develop.

    I feel that all have to take a backward step and look at how we can improve, clubs, coaches, players and umpires need to talk about every aspect of the game after a match. But they also have to accep and take critisism when given but all have to accept that all are human.
    Not just get in the car and then at training complain about the officials or the players these need to be delt with at the time, not carried on to the next match.

    I am sorry for the rant but i feel everyone is at fault not just players and coaches and i know i went off topic and probably have offended all the Umpires on the forumas i normally do.
     
  9. Snoody

    Snoody FHF All Time Great

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    Pierluigi Collina, possibly the best football referee of recent years, made some interesting points on this matter in his book "The Rules of the Game".
    I'll dig out my copy this evening and post what he says.
     
  10. aussieump

    aussieump FHF All Time Great
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    As many here would want consistency and treating all games fairly and within the spirit and the rules then all games must start with a clean slate, otherwise I feel that the official is breaking the code of conduct before they even start the game.

    Simply it is a new game treat it like a new game no carry over issues, they should be gone after the last whistle not used as a threat for the next game.

    Just my thoughts
     
  11. Neo

    Neo Technical Moderator

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    Clean slate: Yes

    But also, that experience with certain teams and players is just that... it enables you to understand what is likely to unfold before you, and so assists with all the techniques you use and so you adapt, adjust and prepare accordingly - this is no different to how teams prepare for an upcoming game where the coaches adapt their positions and play to best win the day against that team.

    But on the pitch you are as disinterested & unbiased as any professional official must be.
     
  12. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    I guess this is the right forum spot for this and really very apt..

    over the last few weeks of umpiring I have encountered the same team a few times.

    One player in particular (a beijing olympian) has a bad habit of charging full pelt and stopping by sticking elbows into the backs of other players.

    The first game he was warned about doing it and he claims the international umpires let it go.

    the second game I warned him about it friendly...and he proceeds to try and stare me down....I gave him an official green card and sent him on his way.

    third game he proceeds to comment on my ability to umpire and Im not at all qualified to umpire his level of hockey. As it happended after the game I submitted it to my league to determine if any action should be taken.

    Now in two days time I am the TD for the game. While this is a bonus as I dont have to directly deal with him ....I may get problems from this.

    I WISH I could go into this with a clean slate...but I am already thinking this guy has gotten away with too much. Its time for me to apply the rules and policeman again.

    That being said....I managed to find videos of the team playing at the olympics and on several occassions the umpires even called him over for his bad play.

    So now I have a comeback for his "international umpires let me get away with it argument"

    Wish me luck in keeping my finger from the button.
     
  13. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    My response to such comments is "Well you haven't got them today, you've got me...(get over it!)"..the bracketed words are implied rather than spoken :)

    I would advise against getting into any discussions with him about how other umpires have treated him.

    You are clearly competent enough in the eyes of the 'powers that be' to be appointed....just do the job.
    As you say it should be easier to be one-level-removed from direct contact with this player...you can be a bit more detached and objective.
     
  14. UmpireHockey.com

    UmpireHockey.com FHF All Time Great

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    1. I had a (semi) similar experience with a former international, now coaching, explaining a rule to me ("I used to play for the national team and blah blah blah."). My response, "Yes. And back then, that was the rule." That was fun.

    2. I've also heard things like, "I've been (from a player) / she's been (from a coach) doing that for _____ [period of time/number of games] and no one has ever called that on her before!" Once was on a penalty stroke. The attacker, after my whistle, steps across the line and then performed a quite lovely drag flick. My whistle signaled for a FHD at the top of the circle. The attacker's coach came out at the end of the half "asking" about the call on the stroke. I explained that the attacker had performed a drag flick.

    Okay, I had to say it a couple/few times including something like, "Coach. She took two steps beyond the line reached back, and did a drag flick. Illegal."

    Coach's comment, "She's been doing that for three years and no one has EVER called that."

    My response, "Well, then. You should tell her to keep doing it."

    That was fun too...Cris
     
  15. animal

    animal FHF All Time Great

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    Just because someone has played at an international level does not make them an expert in the rules, simularly, just because you have not umpired at an international level does not mean the you are wrong.
    Belt this prima donna with a red and then watch him squeal. Much as it hurts me to say it with my well known attitude towards umpires,

    Rule one. The umpire is always correct.

    Rule two. When the umpire is incorrect, refer to rule one.

    ANIMAL
     
  16. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    hehehe animal...youd make LOTS of friends umpiring.

    I found out today that the same guy has said "that they are not fit to umpire at the level he plays at" to several umpires...including a few of our FIH umpires....

    I think the guy is a serial offender.

    but do I take this knowledge with me into the game?

    it kind of feels like...crossme, I dare you...I have a yellow itching to be played.

    Thats what it feels like.

    I know I will go out and not worry and umpire my game...but always a niggling doubt in the brain.

    meh ...dont stress it will be ok...tahts all I have to remember.
     
  17. animal

    animal FHF All Time Great

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    People hate me umpiring 'cause I'm so biased. I hate forwards, and the defence can do no wrong. Over the years I've collected so many cards from Umpires that I've always got an eye out for new and inventive (read imaginary) ways to give one! rofl

    ANIMAL
     
  18. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    You cannot 'pretend not to know' what you do know.....however the fact that you have expressed this concern suggests to me that you will be 'all right on the day" :)
     
  19. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    OK all went well.

    no problems...the guy I was worried about didnt even show up to play.

    I managed to TD with no incidents.
     
  20. aussieump

    aussieump FHF All Time Great
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    Foozbear

    That is good for you but it does show not to preconceive what may happen. In this case nothing happened.

    TD is an easy role as long as your team has done their jobs and you are aware of the roles and responsibilities that are involved.

    Just on a side note:

    I wonder how you would have reacted if an incident occurred that required you to make a major ruling decision after the game, would you have taken in previous player history in your judgement or just made the judgement on what occurred in That Game.

    Clean slates are important but we are human so there will be some carryover info we take into a game. But this carryover info should not be the starting point for that player alone. All players expect and deserve a new start for each game just the same as an umpire .

    Just my thoughts

    AU
     

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