Seve Van Ass - ROT vs AMS

Discussion in 'Holland' started by FastForward24, Nov 11, 2013.

  1. Hacker

    Hacker FHF Legend

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    Don't mean to cause any upset and we are all entitled to our views but.. When I look at that video I see a player (Verga) who gets a couple of minor but annoying contacts in his back; loses the ball and pretty much at the same time swings his stick in the direction of the ball (almost in an instintive hope of contacting the ball). His stick hits the pitch and rebounds up into van Ass's face. I can see 2 different swing trajectories; one before the stick hits the pitch and one after. I'm not convinced he had any intention of casusing any damage and I'm not convinced he was overly reckless. Now whether or not I would have been able to see any of that in real time is another issue entirely.
     
  2. toolfreak

    toolfreak FHF Regular Player

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    Don't think you will cause any upset with that mate! I really hope the way you have seen it is correct it would be such a shame if it wasn't!
     
  3. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I think the fact that his own club have banned him for 3 games in advance of any other punishment from the KNHB speaks volumes...
     
  4. ironman

    ironman FHF Top Player

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    I have to say I disagree with you there Hacker, if you watch the video closely his stick naturally falls to the ground and he then takes the swing... the stick does not bounce up off the floor! If you also look at way the expression on his face changes when he swings the stick behind you can see he looks angry. I do of course agree that he probably didn't mean to hit the player in the face and cause that damage and that it was probably just a petulant reaction, however, that did happen so he has to face the consequences.
     
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  5. SAUmp

    SAUmp FHF Legend

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    There was definite intent to swat an opponent - so fully agree that the RC was deserved as well as any further sanction. Not sure that he realized just how bad the consequence of his temper was going to be - not that that excuses anything! I wonder what the legal position is in Holland - if the intent was to assault, which was the umpire's interpretation, does the injured player have recourse?
     
  6. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I was sent this (badly translated!) article by a Dutch friend today. I don't even know which paper/website it's from, but it seems clear that Rotterdam HC are thinking about suing somebody...
     
  7. Codi Rinkwest

    Codi Rinkwest FHF Newbie

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    I agree with toolfreak Its disappointing to see this, Verga is one of Netherlands brightest prospects.
     
  8. Inselaffen

    Inselaffen FHF All Time Great

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    not sure about Dutch law but under English law the claim would be very unlikely to succeed. has to be an off the ball incident away from the action to have any real chance of getting through.
     
  9. bedfordhockey5

    bedfordhockey5 FHF All Time Great

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    if were talking about serious bodily harm, then you have to take into conjunction if he meant to swing the stick and cause injury your looking at s18 offences against the person act 1861, grievous bodily harm and because hes holding a stick, thats classed as a weapon.
    if he was reckless as to his actions that could cause injury thats s20 OAPA. now hes knocked out three-6 teeth and caused a broken jaw that falls under malicious wounding with weapon. now that is how serious the sentence could be considered if perused in the courts. the minimum sentence he would be likley to get would be 7 years in the uk. ( using uk law here) , now the most likely senirio to come of this would be financial ban and for van ass to sue vega for time lost and monetary repayment. so a ban is fair game, ( all players on a pitch or field of play owe a duty of care to one another and must do the utmost to ensure that that duty is adhered to.) if he hit a pad none of this would apply because there is no injury or the injury would have been less severe, the fact is that he did hit him in the face and got the right punisiment the argument that if he hit the player in the shinpad to get a red is silly, tecnicaly right but your not going to see it happen the red comes after the umps looked at the situation and possibly seen the injury to the player.

    Inselaffen
    there have only been 3 sucessful cases of an on the ball chalange in the sports law arena, but because of the severity of the injury i think it would get through the question is i think that it would be a tort claim and not one of a criminal nature. because it was a foul and he received a red card it was something outside the rules of the game, the player cannot concent to illegal play or anything above assault occasioning actual bodily harm, which consists of brusing breaking of the skin. however the position in sport is diffirent, as a keeper i get hit in the body all the time and sometimes get broken bones, however i can consent to it because its considered to be within the nauture of the game. however there is a test we use in sports law called caldwell recklessness, ( did the player show a reckless disregard for the other players safety.) so in response to your point Inselaffen its more likely to get through.
     
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  10. ivyleague

    ivyleague FHF Top Player

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    Bedfordhockey5, respectfully, this is UK law (as you've mentioned) and what happened is in the Netherlands. from a hockey forum point of view i can only comment that the umpire was correct in giving a red card. i have no doubt that Verga instantly regretted the swing of his stick, it's evident in his reaction to the injury. there are consequences to actions though, and in this case, Van Ass's wages for the next few months are the least of the consequences faced by the player. i hope this is resolved by both parties.
     
  11. Inselaffen

    Inselaffen FHF All Time Great

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    Did you swallow a legal dictionary? :)
     
  12. jaduong

    jaduong FHF Legend

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    bedfordhockey5 what's the punishment for speaking so much legalese on a hockey forum!
     
  13. bedfordhockey5

    bedfordhockey5 FHF All Time Great

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    no i study sports law as one of my modules so i took my chance but yes it is in the netherlands the dutch and uk system is similar the point of my post was the legal position if it had happened in this country, someone asked the legal position :) Inselaffen just off top of my head :)
     
  14. bedfordhockey5

    bedfordhockey5 FHF All Time Great

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    id like to know the dutch legal position though
     
  15. Folmer

    Folmer FHF All Time Great

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    Can't help you with that, I'm not a lawyer. But to be honest: I hope that the clubs can come to an agreement and that this never sees the inside of a courtroom. Can't be good for the sport (any sport for that matter) when lawyers start to make money over other people's backs.

    Some more news about Seve, apparently the damage is even worse.
    "According van Ass senior the damage to his son's teeth is worse than initially thought. Seve didn't loose seven, but ten teeth. ‘His front teeth have been put back, but the worst part is that all the teeth in his lower right jaw are broken. Seve will always have to visit dentists and dental surgeons. With implants some of the mess will be somewhat corrected, but it will never fully heal. There is even the chance that the teeth that got put back will eventually die.' "
     
  16. Kilmory

    Kilmory Administrator
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    Given that prognosis you would think that van Ass would be looking for some form of compensation to cover his medical costs (both current & future). If that can be agreed out of court then fine, but the guy should not be out of pocket because of someone else's petulance.
     
  17. FastForward24

    FastForward24 FHF All Time Great

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    Speaking from experience of having teeth knocked out (only the top front 2 thankfully), I can attest to how much this is going to cost financially, let alone physically and mentally. Each implant is close to £2000 in the UK and more if you visit an implant specialist (which is probably what Seve will need). The process I went through for only 2 teeth took 3+ years to complete due to healing times, settling in times etc so can imagine with the extent of the damage, that Seve will be in and out of the dentist for a long, long time. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy!
     
  18. Craig Boyne

    Craig Boyne FHF All Time Great

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    So who's going to be wearing a mouthguard this weekend?
     
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  19. Hacker

    Hacker FHF Legend

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    Not sure if would have saved the lower teeth! Did he not wear one?
     
  20. Folmer

    Folmer FHF All Time Great

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    Seve did not wear a mouthguard. And indeed it would not have saved his lower teeth.
     
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