Personal penalties Red card for team official

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by lewijono, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    I disagree. We have established that the umpire's performance was not good, and have considered whether it was a one-off or always like that. Now that's done, this is absolutely the place to debate the entire disciplinary process.

    For starters, the English process is not too far out, but does rather too obviously date from another age. It has started to move in the right direction, with the Category D red. The next bullet to bite, perhaps, is to consider rescinding the ban for serious misjudgement by the umpire (as per the OP). The only current get-out is to transfer the ban to another, in the case of mistaken identity.
     
  2. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    You'd hope an appointed umpire would be picked up if he did it regularly and downgraded or given training - a report to the league / assessors would help as well. That said, we only have the OP's word that the 3 tackles were similar and what the coach said (and if he'd said anything else before)

    I did a game a few years ago where I reported a player to the league rather than an MMO for comments I'd just about heard him say about my colleague, suggesting they were racist in their decision making and the club took the decision to ban them and make them pay a fine which seemed to do the job - if I'd heard him clearly (and my colleague / assessor had as well), he'd have got the MMO
     
  3. Goalie64

    Goalie64 FHF All Time Great

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    East (of England) posted this on their website pre season : http://www.east-hockey.com/leagues2/default.asp


    Respect of Umpires - Think about it please: As this weekend is the first weekend of the new season it is appropriate to issue a reminder to all clubs and players of their conduct towards umpires. Feedback from the ERHUA, County HUA's and club umpires from last season is that dissent was at an all time high both from players and from the sidelines. Put simply this has got to stop. We all know that player within our team who from the first whistle chats to the umpire but we never tell them to be quiet and we all know that guy on the sidelines who think it is a bit of "banter" to shout the odd smart alec comment when a decision goes against our team. As we, including the umpires, are part of the hockey family it is time to bring this behaviour under control. We encourage all clubs to remind their players and supporters of their responsibility under the England Hockey Code of Conduct, and yes it applies to all players and all supporters both before, during and after the game. We can't play the game without umpires, they volunteer to give their time so that we can all play the game and we MUST give all umpires a positive level of support and encouragement. Please remember that, where proved, penalties for umpire abuse from both England Hockey and the East League will always be strong both against the individual and the club concerned so the choice is in your hands, ignore it or play the game to let everyone enjoy it.
     
  4. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    His performance wasn't good in my personal opinion. I mean he gave a green card inside the first 5 minutes for the first stick tackle of the game (and this was a simply mistimed tackle, nothing that would even warrant a warning).

    I read up on that is that literally the only way a red card ban can be rescinded is if the umpire admits he actually sent the wrong person off, which is just ludicrous really.

    We haven't yet heard anything regarding the card in terms of MMO however and the red card wasn't actually on the official match card either (our coach was named on there as our coach), and just a side note, he yellow'd one of our players and brought him back on after no more than 30 seconds and admitted he got it wrong (this was seconds after the red was shown), and this was scribble out on the match card!

    Apparently he usually umpires national league games (although I tried to check this but I wasn't sure how you find national league allocations).
     
    #24 lewijono, Oct 3, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  5. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    Completely agree with this and as someone who umpires nearly every week myself it is frustrating at times but I think it is easy enough to manage without cards, although they are sometimes necessary.

    However in this scenario, a red card was just way OTT.
     
  6. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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  7. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    The NPUA website lists all active umpires

    http://www.npua.co.uk/public/outdoor_umpire_panels.php

    Eh cross posted with Red
     
    #27 Gingerbread, Oct 3, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  8. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    Yeah he isn't on there anywhere so don't think that was quite correct. Couldn't find him on any other allocations either but that's just me being the inquisitive fellow I am!
     
  9. coll_latt

    coll_latt FHF Newbie

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    I also played in this game, but for the opposition. I would back @lewijono 100% in his views, and he is in no way biased. How the umpire sent of your coach is baffling. He was in no way aggressive, in no way approached the umpire, bar walking down the touchline to aid communication, or did anything to warrant a red, or any form of reprimand really. I would say his reaction will probably go against him if it is reported, it wasn't the most dignified of exits (however wrong the decision was). After this incident he pretty much lost control of the game, how he allowed your player back on after 30 seconds was strange. as you say, he certainly tried to even things out with some of the decisions and cards against us later in the game.
    It was a pretty tough game, with both teams giving 100%, played in a competitive, but friendly manner. But I wouldn't say either of our teams overstepped the mark to deserve the cards we received. The cards issued by this umpire were in the most part unjust, or simply wrong.
    He very much made the game about him, and was very reluctant to communicate with players, he wouldn't let me know how long was to go either. For a guy who umpires at the level he supposedly does, it was a very poor day at the office.
     
  10. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Just to clarify two things, now that I know who the umpire in question is:
    1. He doesn't umpire at national league level any longer. He did so until 2006, when he retired for various reasons, none of which were related to his ability. We were very sorry to see him go as he was one of our top umpires at the time and was regularly umpiring Men's Premier League games.
    2. He doesn't appear to have been appointed by North HUA or Yorks HUA to the game under discussion. I'm still not exactly sure who appointed him.
    None of this is intended as a comment on his performance on the game in question, or to defend what he did or didn't do. It's just to add some facts to the discussion, and to make it clear that he is NOT a current national league umpire.
     
  11. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    Cheers for that mate, glad it was seen in the same way from you guys as it was us. I didn't know he said anything after but I can imagine it wasn't pleasant I just thought he left in a huff but obviously not :oops:
    Not sure why he let our guy back on other than him saying his card was wrong, I agree it was but never seen it overturned like that in a game.

    It was a tough game and a great one at that and there wasn't any chew between us which for a 1-0 and it being so competitive was surprising, nicely so though, just sorry we couldn't join you back at the club for a drink. Agree we didn't overstep, maybe a couple were greens but you can accept those but it didn't go that way unfortunately.

    Hopefully he just had a bad day, it happens, just obviously frustrating for us.

    Ps. good luck for the season, just not too much luck ;)
     
  12. Stephen65

    Stephen65 FHF Legend

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    I've played hockey for 35 years I do not think I have ever seen a coach given a red card. If that's a red card offence then I should have seen hundreds of coaches get them.
     
  13. Drubbing

    Drubbing FHF Newbie

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    Sounds like the umpire was just in a bad mood and had enough cards to show it.

    Compare that with a game we played in the O40s, where the standard is mixed, but the attitudes get grumpy. A player on our team who has a terrible rep for being angry lines up an oppositions forward, as both are running full tilt, from different directions. He lines him up and doesn't even try to play hockey, laying a hip and shoulder that pole-axes him completely. He has to be carried from the ground. Players everywhere are asking what card, the umpire says nothing, all good, accidental contact. They are rightly livid.

    Most of us thought it was going to descend into a brawl, and even we'd have been happy for the bastard to be sent off. None of us want him back in the team next year.
     
  14. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    Sometimes people have bad days. We do try to prevent it, but sometimes real life leaks into our sporting life and we do rash things. I guess this could have been one of those days?
     
  15. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    Hopefully and if we get him again he is nice as pie :D
     
  16. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    Aw man, i flipping love pie.
    Probably why I am a gk. ;)
     
  17. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    Who doesn't love pie?! Although I don't have them too often otherwise I'd end up a terrible centre back who can't tackle :p
     
  18. wacker

    wacker FHF Newbie

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    If the Norths procedures are the same as the Midlands then I believe that you have no grounds for appeal.
     
  19. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    No we don't can only be overturned in a case of mistaken identity but never mind such is life.
     
  20. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Not completely accurate...

    The red card procedure in England is uniform from club to national league - once one is given, you are right, it can only be revoked for a case of mistaken identity (see section 4.7 on link below)

    Red Card and MMO regs

    However the EH regulations do allow for an possible, albeit rare, appeal against the initial 16 days and against the severity of the penalty (see section 7 of the link above)

    .
     
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