Personal penalties Red card for team official

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by lewijono, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    As the title suggest our coach received a straight red card by the league appointed umpire at the weekend so will explain the situation and looking for advice/thoughts etc.

    I am in no way being biased here and this is exactly what happened word for word (I was stood right next to the umpire when this happened)

    The game itself was a good game, both teams played within the spirit of the game and it was good and competitive. Obviously there is the odd late/dodgy tackle but nothing malicious or cause for concern at all. Said umpire was handing out green and yellow cards like they were Smarties (5 greens and 4 yellows between the 2 teams).

    Red card situation..

    The other team put in 2 physically hard mistimed challenges which no foul was given. These were quite physical challenges and were definitely fouls however a warning would have more than sufficed for both of these. Our player has a similar challenge, just simply mistimed but nowhere near as physical as the previous 2 and received a straight 5 minute yellow having made no previous fouls or tellings off etc.

    Our coach with his arms wide, in a frustrated but not aggressive (with his tone or physical actions) shouted to the umpire (due to the distance away he was so he could hear him), 'how is that a yellow when the 2 assaults down there (pointing to the aforementioned challenges) aren't even fouls?'

    The umpire then goes straight into his pocket and pulls out the red card and says, 'you don't tell me how to referee this game!'

    As far as I am aware this is impossible to be a red card unless our coach was threatening the umpire which literally couldn't have even been slightly misinterpreted.

    Just another point I will mention those is other players received either no card, a green or a yellow for the exact same actions so shoes the inconsistency of the umpire. Plus he said 'referee' the game. Which is just stupid.
     
  2. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    One this I will also mention is that if a team official or spectator is given a red card the actually EH rules state that we should have played the rest of the game with 10 men. This did not happen either.
     
  3. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    Uh-huh, sure.

    Whether the umpire was right or wrong about any decision, your coach's actions are abuse of the umpire.
    The EH regulations don't require threats or actual violence - the lack of such means your coach won't get more than the minimum time of 16 days, all things being otherwise as you claim.
    They also require the team to withdraw a player. If you didn't do this, it is your problem, and probably fortunate that the umpire didn't notice, or your captain may have made it five yellows.
     
  4. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    @lewijono before I try to answer your questions, can you just confirm in which country and which league this incident occurred?

    This is important because the rules of hockey do not allow an umpire to card a team official; however, certain league regulations do allow this to happen. It’s important to establish which regulations we’re talking about here to be able to answer you accurately.
     
  5. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    Well giving out 4 different penalties is inconstancy so not sure how you can insinuate that that is somehow bias? Him saying 'referee' the game is also not bias, it is just me pointing out he just sounded stupid saying that, in my opinion.

    I'm not sure though how it constitutes 'abuse of the umpire', how many times does someone exclaim during a game, 'how is that not a foul?' or words to that effect? That is exactly the same and most game would end up with half the players being red carded.
     
  6. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Clearly there was a lot that could have been handled better. But if the red card is shown, then (in England) the paperwork has to go in, and the disciplinary wheels turn. As an appointed umpire there will almost certainly be some follow-up from the HUA, but others involved might not be made aware of that. A red card to a non-playing team official falls outside the Rules of Hockey, so whether the team plays with 1 less depends on the league regulations. Many leagues do indeed say a player must come off, but there are still some with no ruling - in which case the umpire was correct to continue with the same number on.

    On other point - there is an umpiring team. Did all the cards come from this one umpire, and did the missed opportunities happen in that umpire's area of control, or the colleague's?

    It can be very hard to support a colleague in meltdown - do you go for consistency with the decisions in this match (which are inconsistent with the season's norms), or stick with the lines that any good umpire would draw (and be inconsistent with your colleague's interestingness). Are you willing to blow under their nose for tackles they miss - and undermine the little confidence they have left? Are you willing to shout "No!" over the radio when they reach for the back pocket - or, if no radio, blow a number 3 or 4 whistle to stop them and have a chat? When we are programmed to let them umpire their own area of control, that's hard to do.
     
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  7. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    Not sure how to tag people in this but Redumpire, this is in the North League in England.
     
  8. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    1 green and 1 yellow came from the other umpire late on in the game for the other team and (this is my opinion here), it certainly felt he was trying to even it up as the cards were a bit extreme again (however the other umpire had set precedent) but the consistency between 2 umpires was non existent.

    The umpire I know and he is an ok umpire but the other guy was a different kettle of fish completely. To try give you an insight, he warmed up with ladders, cones and a band around his ankles doing side steps for 45 minutes before the game started (that is in no way an exaggeration btw) and has his name printed on his umpiring shirt.

    Now I'm all for an umpire taking their role seriously but wow!
     
    #8 lewijono, Oct 2, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  9. The chief

    The chief FHF Legend

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    Sounds like a &@£#
     
  10. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    Haha well, example of this was after the red card instance, we were 1-0 with not long to go so were obviously not sprinting for the ball when taking our 16's. Members of the other team gestures a rolling motion with his hands towards the this umpire and says, 'come on hurry it up they're taking ages!', to which he copied the gesture and told us to hurry up!

    Also when our captain said, 'how long is left please umpire?', he didn't look our our captain and just said, 'I'm not telling you'
     
    #10 lewijono, Oct 2, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  11. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    OK, so under North regs, the umpire is entitled to show team officials red & yellow cards. So, let's unpick the various points here:
    No. A red card can be given to the coach for anything that would also have been a red card for a player, and that is a matter or the umpire's judgement.
    Yes and no. An umpire can never show a card to a spectator. But, yes, once the coach had been red carded you should have played the rest of the game with 10 players.
    Assuming you mean inconsistency, no it's not necessarily that. It depends what the cards were for.
    Yes, it could be abuse if it's consistently aimed at undermining the umpire. There isn't a particular set of words or phrases that constitute abuse. It's anything that the umpire deems to be abuse.
    This sounds excessive!
    Lots of umpires do this now. It's not that unusual.
    That's not great
     
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  12. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    Agree that it is down to the umpire's judgement and obviously I can't speak for the umpire, however (and you can say there is bias in this is you wish) but I honestly cannot see how it would even be a green card offence if it was a player who acted in the same manner. Our coach was on the half way line and the umpire was on the 23m line so a fair distance away.

    I mean inconsistency yes my bad (autocorrect can take the blame for that one), in the sense that either nothing was said, a green was given, a yellow was given and a red was given for someone 'telling him how to referee the game'. All of which were in no way aggressive or abusive etc. just your general huffing and puffing players do.

    If it was the first and only time our coach 'complained' if you like then it couldn't (in my opinion) constitute abuse.

    The warm up was certainly excessive but not entirely relevant, only time I have ever seen an umpire with their name on their shirt but fair play.

    Regarding just not telling our captain how long was left it just emphasised really how I felt.
     
    #12 lewijono, Oct 2, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  13. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    I'm in Midlands and all our appointed shirts have names on the back, it was how they were given to us.

    You said that the one team did 2 physical tackles at one end and your player did a similar tackle and got a YC - do you mean one situation was under the area of control of one umpire and the second was for the other umpire? In which case it's an umpire team issue if they are not being consistent. Abuse of officials can always be a red card though regs would decide whether you could give it to a coach or just have to report them after
     
  14. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    Fair enough, not something I have ever seen before, just thought he was an absolute keeno with that and the warm up haha!

    No both of the physical challenges on our team were right under his nose as they were in his 23 and on the side of the pitch he was on. Then the yellow was go was about half way between the 23 and half way line (his end) and on the same side of the pitch as he was.
     
  15. The chief

    The chief FHF Legend

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    If that's umpire abuse then I'm surprised most clubs fulfil all of their fixtures every week. I'd have definitely red carded at least one player this year for that if that was the criteria. This umpire needs to grow up and accept that he's not the star of the show.
     
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  16. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I absolutely agree. The point I was trying to make is that there is no set definition of what constitutes umpire abuse. It sounds to me like this guy got things horribly wrong, but if he thought he was being abused then that's his decision and his alone.

    That leads us into a whole debate about whether or not the current disciplinary system is fit for purpose... This probably isn't the place for that discussion!
     
  17. Rich_C

    Rich_C FHF Star Player

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    I'm all in favour of redumpire being responsible for handing out summary judgement for the entirety of the English leagues.
     
  18. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    Seems like a decent chap ;), motion seconded!
     
  19. Trig

    Trig FHF Legend

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  20. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    You just type '@' and then the person's name, by the way. As follows: @lewijono
     

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