Player language

Discussion in 'Game Management & Communication' started by hockey-legs, Dec 2, 2008.

  1. hockey-legs

    hockey-legs FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2008
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    0
    I dont know about anyone else but I have noticed that there has been a sad increase in swearing and foul language during hockey games.

    Ive only started umpiring myself (only 2games under my belt) but even with that and with playing it is becoming more and more noticeable.

    Has anyone else noticed this??
     
  2. keely

    keely FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    10,403
    Likes Received:
    778
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    hockeylegs, we had a pretty good chat about this in September in swearing at self, and there's been other threads discussing swearing and the use of cards or other control means. If you open up the Umpiring Corner and plug "swearing" into the search bar, you'll find lots of results. Hope that helps. :)
     
  3. hockey-legs

    hockey-legs FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2008
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Keely!!
     
  4. controller

    controller FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,372
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Manchester , UK.
    Even though Keely has stated that we have already had conversations or threads on this matter, I agree with you that swearing is on the increase and in my opinion, more in the Ladies game, as it seems that it does not get dealt with that quickly at the lower end of the game (Grass Roots).
     
  5. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,189
    Likes Received:
    1
    As the game spreads in popularity it is will happen. I have been involved for about 38 years and i have seen a great increase in bad/foul language in the population as a whole never mind hockey. Coaching 10/11 year olds i hear a lot of bad language, it is endemic in society so it is going to happen. I have found that if i have tried to control the language by the use of cards( at higher age levels) or actually not selecting the players i have been verbally abused by, players, parents other school coaches.
    Being an umpire or a coach it is not our job to change society but to live within the terms that society are laying down.
    I think the problem is getting worse and i following a long period of thought i have opted out of grass roots hockey and will probably get out of the sport in the near future.
     
  6. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    3,101
    Likes Received:
    1
    I understand what you say, Grumpy, and think it would be sad if you felt obliged to 'retire' for this reason.

    OTOH, as has been shown on the BBC recently "Anything Goes!" is most certainly NOT always 'the norm'.....as an ex-serviceman I have heard and used my share of colourful language, but there are circumstances in which we all need to exercise restraint.

    I think it does no harm to make it clear to captains that 'YOUR' hockey-field is one of the places & times where/when you, as the 'policeman', expect such restraint to be exercised. And I don't mean 'no swearing'....just 'No abusive use of language'.

    (I only recall once ever carding a player for swearing (as opposed to abuse) and that was a woman!)
     
  7. Mr Bean

    Mr Bean FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    East-Sussex
    I swear at myself in nearly every game.. its not meant for anyone else's ears but sometimes does get a bit loud if ive done something really stupid, no umpire has ever pulled me up for it, just team mates saying "your saying that quite loud". I try to curb what i say but when ive let a goal in or made a silly mistake i let out a number of harsh words to myself.

    As my language has no effect with the game i will keep doing it as long as i keep making mistakes.. but what i think is really bad, is the juniors i play with f'ing and blinding at each other e.t.c. it should be drilled into them at a young age that swearing isnt tolerated on the pitch if it is loud enough for others to hear.
    it wasnt drilled into me and thats why i think i have very little restraint when it comes to making these comments to myself.

    if i was to take an umpires view on this then i can understand if you card someone for using foul language and then having them tell you to f off or say your a shit umpire then its kinda like hmmm and why do i give my time up for this? but on most occasions people do accept a green for it and apologize and you dont hear a peep out of them for the rest of the game..

    sorry for the essay btw :)
     
  8. Moody_Git

    Moody_Git FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2006
    Messages:
    657
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    Chez les grenouilles
    IMHO, swearing at oneself for making mistakes is fine. You have to let off steam somehow and there is no better than giving out to yourself.

    Swearing at team-mates is wrong and implies that people need to learn how to encourage team spirit or bugger off/go elsewhere. We have a veteran player who cannot keep his mouth shut and its hardly surprising that when he does not play, the team are far more successful...

    Swearing at opposing players or the umpire should never happen. Card situations every time.
     
  9. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    3,101
    Likes Received:
    1
    "IMHO, swearing at oneself for making mistakes is fine."

    Sure, but it doesn't have to be at a volume audible to everybody in the sports complex!

    I agree with the rest.
     
  10. mani

    mani FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,367
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hockey should introduce Rugby type refereeing.

    1 - No back chat AT ALL
    2 - Only the captain can talk to the umpire
    3 - Reversal of decsions become common place
    4 - if a defending team dispute a decision in the half - upgrade to PC
    5 - if a defending team dispute a decion in the oppo half - upgrade to a free hit on dotted D
    6 - any swearing - 10m sin bin.
     
  11. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    917
    Likes Received:
    1
    well Mani...
    1....is hard to police...you become very policeman...but than the players know what to expect.
    2... this is a rule....but not one used too often. I insist that the captain talks to me for his whole team including the benches and spectators. If a player asks me to look out for something, I dont mind that as its communication and communication is good.
    3... trust me when I say...if I get extreme dissent...a player os walking or the decision is reversed. I have no worries in doing that. at an under 16 game this past week, a player showed dissent....his team didnt wait for me to blow time back in three times after I had to card the player...so I reversed the decision...the other team scored and won the game. I dont think they will forget what they should do.
    4 and 5....if the play is in the defending 25 yard area...and dissent is loud and verbal...PC. if its in opposing 25 yrd....its a reversal....its kind of like the one above.
    and 6.....anybody swears at me or my co-ump...its a YC...no ifs buts or maybes. I dont swear at them and I expect the same. If Im feeling really angry I'll call the player AND captain and talk only to the captain...ignore the player. But thats only if I'm REALLY angry!
     
  12. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
    FHF Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    4,182
    Likes Received:
    921
    Location:
    Hampshire (South Coast of England)
    Umpires must not get angry. The more emotion that wades in, the less likely that a decision has much to do with the Rules, consistency, fairness, or any other good thing.
    Mad umpires make crazy decisons. :growl: :baffled: ???

    When players lose control of their language and respect for Rules, it's often because they are angry. It is then, more than ever, that they need a bit of calm authority from their umpire - a focus on what happened there, what the umpire decides will happen now, and what will not happen again in this game.

    None of Mani's suggestions work for me. We should welcome a bit of feedback on a close decision, since a brief explanation now prevents resentment building to an explosion later. Surely that's one of the ways for good umpiring to encourage flowing hockey?
     
  13. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,189
    Likes Received:
    1
    I am interested in the fact that you can talk to the captain to help control the spectators. Having just attended a match and i saw this tried by the umpire. The captain said that he could not control the spectators, he got carded. I was in the crowd, and i said nothing but walked off and watched another game, rugby. Bigger crowd and lots more noise, shouting at the ref ands the players. I discussed this with a ref for rugby and a ref for soccer, their attitude is that the spectator has paid their money and in a country of relatively free speach they both said it goes with the job (noise and abuse) they laughed when i told them of the rules in hockey. They both said that their superiors in the sport said it was more important that you get support on the pitch and control the match. Also if you cannot take the heat DONOT be a ref.
    I have been at hockey matches with crowds of 5,000 and more, stopping the match to tell an captain to get the crowd to calm down is rediculous. It would cause even more unrest.
    If we want the game to get more spectators weather we as a sport like it or not we will have to accept this.
    I can see in my minds eye who are going to respond to this post and the anger it will engender. Having had a discussion with a people involved in advertising sporting matches, hockey is the worst to get shown on tv and to get sponsorship for. Plus we have no real personalities out side the umpires the players are really colourless and without personality> These are the people who sell the game, the players and this is the view of tv what chance do we have.

    On the same note i heard that if the game does not develop and accept radicle change it will be dropped as an olympic sport. Which includes aggression, confrontation and crowd participation, to get viewing numbers at major competitions tv wants it. So if we are dropped as an Olympic sport it will be a disaster. So it is up to all involved to bring the sport forward and accept things that do not like.
     
  14. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    917
    Likes Received:
    1
    funny you talk about this grumpy...

    we discussed this today about spectators and control....I guess I talk about stuff with others I read on here.

    at a rugby game or soccer match...ones that involve TV and such....people get hauled out by real police if they make an ass of themselves.

    I have umpired games with around 3000 people and the abuse....is just noise. It doesnt distract you from what you are doing and it becomes the atmosphere. You can feel alot when you have that atmosphere....as the time ticks and the crucial goal is needed...spectators will drive a player...sometimes to do the right thing sometimes the bad thing.

    listen to the crowd...but dont let it affect you. As long as it is just words...it can be forgotten easily.

    what should NOT be tolerated is cornering umpires as they leave a field...which happended here recently....this is uncalled for. Its a game and should not be regarded as more than that.

    I have never carded a captain for spectator participation (I have seen it done...but then you can get ridden harder).

    something that was said to me that ill pass along. HOW do you know that the person you point out is ACTUALLY a spectator for that team. We play at open fileds for the most part and that person could be anyone. What if a unscrupplous team decides to send someone into the spectators to scream abuse at the umpire in the hope of sending the captain off.

    the immediate field should be your concern...if you are worrying about 40 more people....then you dont have enough to do!
     
  15. Dave2892

    Dave2892 FHF Newbie

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2008
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Language wise ive started taking the 0 tolerance approach to it, Green cards without question and repeat or if another member of the team swears after knowing they will get green carded will get a yellow no questions asked!
     
  16. Goalie64

    Goalie64 FHF All Time Great

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    5,605
    Likes Received:
    271
    I think we need to differentiate between different types of spectators.

    At any games I'm involved in umpiring, the only people likely to be watching are those who have played in the previous game or those who have turned up early for the next match. They are usually to be found within the boundary of the pitch, and as such I would expect the home captain to keep them in order. As I've said previously, if they were to move one yard back (to be outside the fence) they then become "proper spectators" and are then outside my zone of control.

    Grumpy - if hockey were to be dropped as an Olympic sport why would it be a disaster?
    I for one do not want the game to move towards aggression and confrontation.
    If it did I would not want to be part of the game.
     
  17. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,189
    Likes Received:
    1
    As an Olympic sport in a lot of countries the controlling body get their funding because of this. If it is not an Olmypic sport it will have virtually no funding. Can you see GB hockey getting the same amount funding if the sport was dropped. I doubt it. In Ireland to play top hockey in a season it will cost the players about €3,000 this year, so without grass roots funding i think the sport is in real problems.

    TV revenue is driving what happens on the pitch.e.g. The European Hockey League (EHL). All the changes in the rules.
    They also want personality on the pitch, players that NON hockey supporter will want to watch not the hockey supporter.

    I am not saying i will like it if it became more physical or confrontational but it is what TV wants. But the league hockey we play and i go and watch in Ireland and in the UK is sterile and colourless. The EHL is providing a better spectator sport but it is not really getting the tv public interest so it will be interesting if the EHL introduce more changes to the rules in the future.
     
  18. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
    FHF Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    2,713
    I'd laugh too Grumpy! It's not in the Rules of Hockey that an umpire can - or should - control the spectators. It may be in local league / competition regulations, but that does not mean it is a Rule of Hockey.

    I obviously don't know about the regulations of the local leagues that everyone posting to this board plays under, but I do know that in the Slazenger English Hockey League and the European Hockey League, neither the umpires nor the match officials have any authority whatsoever over members of the public watching the game(s). They can - and should - control the players and officials listed on the match sheet, and those people should be the only ones within the playing area, but their authority extends no further than that.

    Clearly if an umpire or official is "cornered" by spectators after the match, or a spectator behaves in a way that is borderline-illegal then they should be dealt with, but I would suggest that the only way to do so is under the disciplinary code of the relevant hockey association (or if it is serious under the laws of the relevant country). There is no provision for it in the Rules of Hockey.

    This may seem to be "nit picking", but I'd hate to think that anybody just starting out in their umpiring career who reads this board thinks that they have a duty (or a right) to control the spectators at a game. They do not.
     
  19. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,189
    Likes Received:
    1
    Could be local rules but i have heard it said at a Universities match by a FIH TD/Umpire that it was the umpires job to control the spectators as well. If this is what is being said to umpires at matches it is not a bit of wonder that we have a bit of ambiguity with regard to the rules.

    I saw in a match in Wales two players carded by the umpire for the behaviour by the spectators. These spectators happened to be from another club altogether and the match became a bit of a farce as the spectators really got into getting players sent off.

    Again in the bar afterwards it was discussed and at a tournament a TD had said it was the umpires job.

    I also experienced it at an under age international match when a td asked the team management to ask the crowd not to give the umpires a hard time. Milton Keynes is a big place and the management was involved in the match.

    So it does seem that this type of incident does happen.
     
  20. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    917
    Likes Received:
    1
    in reagrads to this Grumpy.

    watching the olypmpics and hearing commentators from two of the leading hockey nations exclaim that the Canadians were a rough physical side. now if the game is going towards the physical....and commentators are saying negative things about it.....are we not in trouble anyway?

    I think spectators would like to watch a good quality of play...with skills.

    look at football (yes it is also called soccer) what is it most fans want?...skillful play or physical play?

    the thing is, when these players are interviewed on television they know what to say becasue they know how to talk to the camera. In Hockey....how many times have you seen a camera and interviews at your field. the hockey players dont have a clue how to talk to a camera....like 90% of us they freeze when they see the camera.

    on the subject of personalities....I dont know a hockey player with one on the field......OFF the field its another matter.
    Ill use my knowledge of Australian rules Footlball. In the 80's we had some personalities that really drove the game into the hearts of the masses. Mark jackson, warwick cappa to name a couple. Jackson would just harrass and fight with the full forwards all game(not something we want in hockey) Cappa would wear shorts two sizes TOO small and left nothing to the imagination.

    if we look at hockey....what can a player legally do that earns him a personality? is it scoring tons of goals...or using great skill....or hard physical play? I have often thought outdoor field with boards like indoor...the ball is constantly in play.

    On a note as it being dropped as an olympic sport....that would be a bad thing for the sport. I know the funding that goes into it and the governing bodies that fund it also because its an olympic sport.
    it would be a travesty if it was dropped as it is a thinking persons game..it is played by smart sporty people. it CAN be played by ANYONE no matter their size. It requires few pieces of equipment. CAN be played ANYWHERE( we really dont need synthetics to play).

    lets look at other popular sports....the more professional they become the more defined the player base has to be...ice hockey is thugs on ice....they used to have all sorts with skill but they have been phased out. American footbal....individual roles require a certain body build. (you can actually guess the positions by their body size.) Football (soccer) seems to be heading the same way with certain body sizes in certain areas...but it is still not as advanced as american football. example...peter crouch...i dont think he is a good football player but he is tall and is in forwards.

    Hockey needs to go back to skill. But what do I know...Ill leave that to the FIH to decide.
     

Share This Page