Penalty Stroke at Full Time

Discussion in 'PS and Goalkeeping' started by controller, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    John - start typing after the "backslash+quote in square brackets" thingy (or just use the REPLY button) - please!

    If that were the case, John, then both instances would not be separately listed under the rules. It's also for the pedants out there who could justify NOT awarding a PS because, for example, the defender who pushes an attacker's teammate to the ground so they can't possibly get the rebound from the shot the attacker was about to take doesn't deny a scoring opportunity because the attacker in possession of the ball was still fully able to take their shot.

    Absolutely no need to make this issue more complicated than it already is! :no:
     
  2. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Sorry John, but I genuinely don't. Your post thoroughly confused me.

    I think what you're saying is if there's no foul by the defence then it can't be a PS, but I don't see what that adds to the discussion. If we were playing a handling game with an oval ball and 15 players on each side it would be rugby union, but it isn't...
     
  3. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    controller is correct...

    using your voice more than your whistle can make you a better umpire. it allows the players to know whats going on and what your seeing at the time.

    we use our voice to call players 5 yards....to tell them make sure thats a metre....if you close enough to the drop of an aerial ball warning the encroaching player within 5 yards.

    if you simply blow a whistle without using your voice first at these instances the players may geta sense of "oh he is a mean umpire" if you call them a few times and they still dont get it...then you penalise em they have less to complain about.

    also if your using your voice more in a game it can relax you....helps you make the decision.

    when things get tense from the teams as the clock is running out I start talking more....i saw things like...tackles good....advantage..you got it..play on.

    the players are responding well to the voice and it makes my job so much easier.

    even on PC...first one...i tell everyone that whole foot outside the lines please....injector has to have both feet on either side of the line.....(of course this is if they are breaching in anyway. if they arent breaching I assume they know the rules well enough) strangly I had this in my rec games umpiring and no-one complained about me saying..hey make sure both feet are over the line. when they fouled later in the game the player knew what he had done and looked rather embarassed.

    as to the the reply about calling NOT OUT advantaging the attackers....it also advantaging the defenders....if they know its not out they can adjust their defence accordingly....

    the voice does not influence either side....it is a commentary for both teams to understand the play.

    im sure Keely would finally agree with me on one thing and that voice more= whistle less.
     
  4. philthy

    philthy FHF All Time Great

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    I agree that using your voice for things like "make sure you're 5" is a good idea

    But play's not actually live at that point. That's just avoiding "gotcha" umpiring.

    I think that saying "Not Out" on a PC is too much. The umpire's not there to coach, they're there to officiate. Who knows - it might be part of a routine to not bring the ball out of the D on the initial injection. Maybe the plan is to catch the defence off guard by keeping it in the D and then slipping it left or right out of the D?
    It's not the umpire's place to call at that point.
     
  5. controller

    controller FHF Legend

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    I know I do it as a memory point for me when umpiring that the ball from PC not left the circle, it will also help when they do score and everyone has heard it, in regard to coaching and basically cheating in my view to confuse and disable the defence by doing so can be unsportsmanlike in my eyes but then that is why umpire at club level now.
     
  6. philthy

    philthy FHF All Time Great

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    I don't think confusing the defence is unsporting

    It's just like dummying a pass or dummying the straight strike while someone else slips it right and hammers it in

    You can't possibly believe that attempting to confuse the opposition and catch them off guard is unsporting. Otherwise strikers would be waiting for the keeper to get up from a dive before they play the rebound otherwise "that's not fair, I wasn't ready"

    All moves are designed to catch the defence off guard
    If you're playing a PC and the defence have got wind of what you're doing - you'll do something else, because it'll confuse them!

    Why is not passing the ball out of the circle first time on a PC cheating? Not passing it out and then claiming you did is cheating. Not passing it out first time isn't. How can it possibly be cheating? I'm sorry but I really really don't get your logic on that!
     
  7. David_Underdown

    David_Underdown FHF Regular Player

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    If it clearly hasn't left the circle, there's probably no need to make the call. It would only really be necessary in the borderline case, where perhaps the attack think it is out, but they actually stopped whilst it wasn't completely over the circle line (without wishing to reopen that particular debate). I find it difficult to conceive of an occasion where the attack would find it advantageous to not quite let the ball out of the circle, and then deliberately move out it out alittle later (KISS). Ultimately the judgement of whether it is truely in or out is up to the umpire, so why not let both sides know where you stand?
     
  8. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    I disagree with this. I see no distinction between telling the players that a ball has traveled outside the circle or, for example, telling them the ball is still in along the sideline or the endline. In addition, this is in no way coaching as you're not instructing what the players should do as a result of your decision whether the ball has passed outside the circle - you're not saying "move the ball outside! Don't shoot!" That would be coaching. What players do with the information you pass along about your decision is their problem.

    The idea that somehow you disadvantage the attack because they're intentionally trying to be tricky about their set piece doesn't really fly here. The deception in the play is not that the defenders don't know whether the ball has left the circle, but that they were expecting the ball would leave the circle at that time and it did not. Very different things.
     
  9. philthy

    philthy FHF All Time Great

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    My God. We're disagreeing! We must alert the church elders - it could be heralding the apocalypse! :p

    To me, there's something very different in the umpire saying the ball hasn't left the D on a PC and saying it's still in when it's on the sideline.
    Maybe it's because of the proximity to the goal or the intensity of the PC situation, but to me it's different.

    If the umpire says "it's still in" along the sideline - then both teams know the ball's not dead and keep playing.

    But saying it's not left the circle on a PC, I don't quite see the point. Neither team's going to stop playing, the defence isn't going to stop defending just because they're not sure if it's left the circle or not, so in a way it only benefits the attack if they hadn't realised it was still in the D.

    It's probably the goalie in me, but I think that it's just too much like instruction from the umpire.
     
  10. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    It must be my weakened state from this cold/flu coming on that's defeated my usual brainwashing powers...

    That's alright, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I can see your point, I just think mine's better. ;)
     
  11. philthy

    philthy FHF All Time Great

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    That's weird - because I can see your point, but think mine's better! :p

    Maybe the mind control does still work!
     
  12. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    IMO, you are giving information to both teams, which is not, in itself, of greater benefit to either.

    The attackers know they cannot score directly, but so do the defenders, and are not tempted to make desperate efforts to save a 'non-scoring shot'.
     
  13. controller

    controller FHF Legend

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    Keely, I thought you were stronger than that to fall for the sympathy vote for you having a cold/flu. rofl

    My logic in regard to it being cheating, I it was my poor grammar that confused, when I am more awake I will post my real ideas for it being cheating.
     

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