Penalty Stroke at Full Time

Discussion in 'PS and Goalkeeping' started by controller, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. philthy

    philthy FHF All Time Great

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    But then we'd NEVER get overtime PCs.. because the chances of a PC being conceded just as the umpire is raising the whistle to his lips to blow fulltime is pretty minimal...

    So, if it's close to the end then it's perfectly reasonable to blow time and allow the PC to be played.

    You never end the game mid-PC. Just like most umpires wouldn't blow full time just as an attacker was lifting their stick to shoot...
     
  2. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    How true about the blind spots.I did most of my umpiring as a club umpire, there being no " independent " umpires. I, also in a small association, umpired the other teams often.
    ( The other side of the coin to blind spots was represented by the call" WAIT till I DO it before you blow, deegum" :sorry: )
    It was a real pleasure to occasionally get a game with no one I knew playing.
    as to bias. There is a difference between bias and cheating. I know one excellent umpire who was horrendously biased towards his own team.
    But standing with him watching that team playing, one wondered what match he was watching.

    He genuinely did not see any faults with " his team"
    Sorry for a bit off topic., I hate umpires being accused of cheating..... as opposed to " honest bias" a much less heinous crime.
     
  3. David_Underdown

    David_Underdown FHF Regular Player

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    No NE14HOCKEY (as Philthy says), the game always continues until the end of a PC as defined in the rules. Umpires will usually blow before the PC starts to indicate that the overtime provisions are in operation, but there is nothing in the rules that states they must do this. The half cannot end whilst a PC is in progress.
     
  4. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    The rule, ne14: ( surprised no one quoted it.)
    13.4 The match is prolonged at half-time and full-time to allow completion of a penalty corner or any subsequent penalty corner or penalty stroke
     
  5. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Going to have to add my voice to the consensus here NE1. A PC should be played out at the end of either half of the game, whenever it was started. So if a corner starts at 00:00:10 it needs to be played out. If any of the top umpires in the world gave a PC with 10 secs left on the clock I can pretty much guarantee you that they would allow the clock to count down to 00:00:00 before the PC started to avoid having to blow a whistle - or have a hooter sound - in the middle of the PC.

    To pick up on philthy's point, if your interpretation was correct there would be no need for a provision in the rules for "overtime" PCs as one would never arise. How could you give a PC after the whistle had blown for the end of a half?
     
  6. glossevans

    glossevans FHF Regular Player

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    Not wishing to re-ignite this debate any further, but wouldn't the PC be deemed as over once a defender had played the ball? In this case that was the orginal save from the shot that subsequently involved the ball being trapped?

    From that point on, it was entirely possible to score a goal without the ball passing out of the circle. If the 'keeper is 'intentionally' fouling by (for example) covering the ball, that a PS is a justifyable decision in the right circimstances - if a little harsh. A more likely outcome would be another PC.

    As for Controllers third point, you take it on the chin and move on. It ain't fair, but no-one ever said it was!!
     
  7. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    For glossevans
    The difference between completion of a PC in "overtime' and the completion in ordinary time is 13.4.d.

    ( and that's important let me tell you. ;)-Almost lost a tournament once because the umpire didn't know that difference )
    The other conditions also end all PC specific rules in a normal time PC
     
  8. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Sorry gloss, but can you explain your thinking here, given the rule that deegum has quoted above?
     
  9. glossevans

    glossevans FHF Regular Player

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    deegum, redumpire - just me not understanding the difference between a 'normal' PC taking place during a match and an 'overtime' PC. I thought that a 'normal' PC was deemed as over or complete once a defender had played the ball?

    I have no problem in putting my hand up and saying that there is a possibility I might be wrong.

    Just to clarify (for my understanding) an 'overtime' PC is not over when a defender plays the ball?

    I think thats what I should be taking from what deegum posted.

    If that's a correct understanding, in Controller's orginal post / question, there could have been no goal-scoring opportunity until the ball passed outside the circle (in this case for the first time)?
     
  10. philthy

    philthy FHF All Time Great

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    No PC is over just because a defender plays the ball - it's only over when one of the scenarios in deegum's post happens, with the exception of 13.d
     
  11. glossevans

    glossevans FHF Regular Player

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    Hadn't realised that.

    Well there you go - every day's a school day!
     
  12. glossevans

    glossevans FHF Regular Player

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    So how about this scenario.

    Ball is injected, passes outside circle, brought back in and flicked low (less than six inches off ground) towards goal. Keeper saves with kicker and re-bounds ball straight back to attacker who took first flick. Could this attacked now 'hit' the ball into the roof of the net to score a goal?

    My first reaction is yes he could and it would stand as a goal - but from what you've just posted, now I'm not sure.

    There is probably another rule that this scenario brings in tho that we haven't discussed.
     
  13. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Just to be absolutely clear on this: neither a PC in normal time, nor one at the end of a half, is over just because the ball touches a defender's stick.

    Why not have a quick glance through the full rule book, gloss? You'll be amazed how many things you'll learn! It's available on-line here.
     
  14. philthy

    philthy FHF All Time Great

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    Yes he could - because it's not the first shot at goal - the first shot was the flick

    But it's still part of the PC because none of the "ending a PC" scenarios have happened; so you couldn't, for example, make a substitution.
     
  15. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Yes glossevans, the rebound is a subsequent shot and there is no height restriction on a hit shot.

    And sorry to glossevans and others on the board right now - I got some Rules/dates wrong and he asked the question just as I deleted the post for a rewrite. This is what it should have been.
    This is an even more persistent survivor. 2001 Rule 15.2.1 k "if the first shot at goal is a hit, the ball must cross the goal-line..." below "... 460mm for a goal to be scored, unless it touches the stick or body of a defender". But still 2001 15.2.1.n is "if the ball travels more than 5 metres from the circle, the PC Rules no longer apply" with no mention of defenders.

    Actually we need to go back to 1986 (before the first hit below 18 inches Rule came in) Rule 15(d) "No shot at goal shall be made until the ball be stopped on the ground or touch the stick or person of a defender".

    Over the last year I've had "a defender touched it so the PC is over" quoted at me by a player and two coaches. :rolleyes:
     
  16. Kilmory

    Kilmory Administrator
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    Is this not 'coaching' the attacking team? I would be most upset if you helped the attacking team in a PC I was defending. If they want to shoot at goal when they can't score then let them. I bet they only waste one PC like that!
     
  17. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

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    That is interesting an umpire and friend who after allowing a goal from the sc in which the ball had never left the circle. After the goal had won the match i asked him why he allowed the goal he stated that as soon as an opponent had touched the ball the ball did not have to hit the back board from an initial shot. The ball was roofed off the goalkeepers helmet.
    In a junior european tournamnet last year the same situation arose and a goal was given. I also checked at a university tournament last season and again that is how the td read the rules.
    This may not be correct but it does show that getting clarification before a match or a tournament is essential.
    I just think this shows no matter how we try to avoid anomalies in the rules do occur and it is no ones fault.
     
  18. controller

    controller FHF Legend

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    Possibly but I don't think so in my opinion, using the voice is an important part of umpiring and playing on in advantage sense of the game
     
  19. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

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    If an umpire shouted not out, i would be thinking i was partaking in the most boring game in the world 'cricket'. :yes:
     
  20. johnreiss

    johnreiss FHF Top Player

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