Penalty Stroke at Full Time

Discussion in 'PS and Goalkeeping' started by controller, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. controller

    controller FHF Legend

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    OK, I will try and describe the scene and situation.

    This is a ladies game of the lower divisions. The home team is 2 - 1 up. It is club umpires, so here I go.

    The controlling umpire has given the two minute signal to the other umpire, 30 seconds has gone, he awards a penalty corner for foot in the 'D'.

    Just after awarding the hit, he then blows full time, home team captain questions him politely, refuses to ask questions.

    Penalty corner is injected but has not left the circle, play continues, a shot at goal, keeper saves, the ball goes under the keeper, but it is still playable, both a defender and an attacker get the ball, then the controlling umpire awards a penalty stroke.

    Now, the players from the home side argue with the umpire, but they are instructed from a senior member of the club committee to leave it, let the game go on.

    Just before the stroke is taken, the controlling umpire turns towards the sideline and asks for some advice off a senior, and I mean senior umpire who gives some advice to the umpire. No one at the game can hear this advice and still don't know what was said.


    Penalty stroke is taken and the away side score.

    Well you can imagine that it is not a good scene for hockey, but the umpire leaves quickly, without shaking hands with his colleague or either team but does sign the match sheet and makes sure the score is written in.

    Now for the question,

    1. At what point did the game end.
    2. can a penalty stroke be awarded for an offence in the 'D' from a short corner if the ball has not left the circle.
    3. What would you expect the Home side to do if you were them.


    I know the answers, and I have checked them with many people, but I would like to hear from others, to get a fair opinion.
     
  2. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

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    Game ends when the ball is signalled dead by the umpire i.e. it has left the circle by a distance of 5 metres, the ball has passed over the back line as is deemed not to have been deliberately done so by a defender. If the attacking team cause and offence through danger, or kick the ball, hit the ball wide.

    Yes the stroke can be given as the ball stays in play until one of the above occurs as a sc can be awarded.

    Senior people in the club to control the team and supporters.

    I am not sure if this is correct but it is how i would read the situation. Bu ti have found that you have to accept the decisions and then when tempers have cooled get clarification and then explain to all the players what was seen from the umpires point of view.
     
  3. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    That is your opinion , may not have been the umpire's. he may also have seen something else.

    Re Point 1.
    11.5 Umpires are responsible for ensuring that the full time is played and for indicating the end of time for each half and for the completion of a penalty corner if a half is prolonged.
    13.4 The match is prolonged at half-time and full-time to allow completion of a penalty corner or any subsequent penalty corner or penalty stroke ; for this purpose, the penalty corner is completed when..
    Taqke your pick as to whether the match has been prolonged but not the half, or the half and match have..
    I think the bolded AND means the half has finished. but the match goes on.
    But is there any practical difference?

    Re point 2.
    12.4 A penalty stroke is awarded :
    a for an offence by a defender in the circle which prevents the probable scoring of a goal
    b for an intentional offence in the circle by a defender against an opponent who has possession of the ball or an opportunity to play the ball
    c for defenders persistently crossing over the back-line before permitted during the taking of penalty corners.

    There is no possibility of 12.4.a being applied ever
    12.b It would be, IMO, a very harsh decision indeed to say that a gk who fell on the ball, which went clear, had breached 12.4.b , but it is a possible one
    12.4c well, it could happen. :eek:

    re point 3.
    The two minute signal can be quite inaccurate.- (so can the measure of the " 30 seconds" in the heat of battle ;))
    combined with this,since the umpire is keeping time, he may have called the end a little bit early to indicate that it is ' an extended time" PC
    Not quite according to the book, but assuming it was very close to time ( as kept by the umpire) does it make any REAL difference?

    I'd wonder about the " senior" umpire giving advice. if he wasn't officially coaching.( don't know if ' in game' coaching is permitted in your area.)

    So, what is there to do?

    There has been a questionable decision- but since it could be right......
    And bad signalling and/ or keeping of time .
    And perhaps a bit of bad practice having no bearing on the result.
     
  4. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

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    I think controller is asking if a ps can be given after the final whistle has gone for full/ half time and in the sc scenario, not with regard to to the situation he described, but as ever i am probably wrong.

    So my understanding of the rules would be yes a ps can be given
     
  5. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    its my understanding that is a defender commtis a foul that stops the probable scoring of a goal then it can be given as a PS.

    and as long as the normal condidtions of the final time PC is met then a PS can be awared.
     
  6. Kilmory

    Kilmory Administrator
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    But if the ball hadn't left the circle, no goal couldbe scored so that can't apply.

    As Deegum has said, the only possible call would be 12.b

    Every keeper should know that if they show no attempt to get off a ball then there is a chance a PS will result. The trick is to appear to make the attempt while keeping the ball nice and close. ;)
     
  7. Paul Watts

    Paul Watts FHF All Time Great

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    for me it could only be a PC as the ball hadn't left the D from the injection, therefore no goal could have been scored :nerd:
     
  8. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

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    Oops, sorry i misread the original post, if a shot went in and the ball had not left the circle, surely as soon as the shot comes in the whistle blows and a free out is given.
    But on the point of a ps being given even if the ball has not left the circle i still think that if a defender deliberately stick fouls or plays an opponent while they are dribbling, it is a deliberate offence which may or may not be in the act of scoring a goal, this offence means a ps should be awarded. Or has controller found another scenario to baffle and split the forum members in half.
     
  9. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Incorrect, Paul. Please see Kilmory and Grumpy's correct assessment that an intentional foul by a defender inside the circle under 12(b) would be correctly called as a stroke - regardless of the fact that at that time, a goal could not be scored because the ball had not left the circle.

    Technically, no. As the rule currently reads, the play should be allowed to continue. Please see the following threads for that discussion:

     
  10. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

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    Ta for the info, its unforunate and i agree with you but what i have found both in home and in international competition that as soon as a player shoots in this scenario they will give a free out. This is the bane of us all the inconsistancy from week to week.
    Though i will read all the threads with interest.
    Thanks again
     
  11. UmpireHockey.com

    UmpireHockey.com FHF All Time Great

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    Where is home?

    It is very hard to believe this is being called inconsistently in international matches.

    Cheers...Cris
     
  12. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    grumpy I understand what your saying.

    I was instructed to call AS the shot comes in as a corner could continue for awhile and explaining to players why its not a goal was too hard.

    that was my last season....this season I SHOUT "NOT OUT" if it not gone out...if it goes out after that...I SHOUT "ITS GOOD".

    this has helped me greatly at keeping the spirit of the rule and the players informed of my current state of mind.
     
  13. PEHC

    PEHC FHF Regular Player

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    Seems very sensible.

    To your question I can understand possibly why the PS was given was it clear to the umpire that the ball wasn't under the keeper? Unless the injection was to slow to make it out and a defender punted it out with their foot I don't think anything other than a free hit to the home team is acceptable.

    The blowing of the whistle is very important if the penalty corner was awarded before the end of the game and the end occurs whilst it is set up then you have to play it. If the corner starts before the end of play then the final whistle ends the game and the corner is not played out. Ending the game before shows a conscious decision of the umpire to make sure that doesn't happen which seems rather odd to me. I would say he was cheating
     
  14. controller

    controller FHF Legend

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    I would say he was cheating
    [/quote]

    Well, that is what the players thought as well but does an umpire actually cheat or does he/she just likes to help their club out to gain league points.

    So far, I have got the answers I was expecting straight to the rules and the understanding of the rules.

    Though, most of you have not answered number 3.

    3. What would you expect the Home side to do if you were them.

    Think if you were the team captain, how would you keep your players under control. How would you deal with it, would you complain, would you try and ask the umpire, how would you expect the umpire to act.
     
  15. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I wrote a comprehensive reply to this post last night and then accidentally deleted it - damn Pino Grigio!

    Anyway, everything seems to have been covered now, apart from controller's question 3 and two issues that are real bugbears of mine!

    To deal with controller's question 3: I have no idea what the home team should do, mate! Part of me says they should just suck it up and get on with worrying about next week's game; but if they really thought that the umpire was "cheating" (and I know that's not a word that you've used controller, quite rightly as it's one hell of an accusation) then they should report it through the appropriate official channels. As for how they should control their players: with respect they should know that already; if the captain can't do that, get a new captain.

    And my bugbears.

    1. It does not have to be a "goalscoring opportunity" for a PS to be awarded. One of the situations in which a PS can be awarded is if an offence (either intentional or unintentional) stops the probable scoring of a goal (12.4.a); but an intentional offence by a defender anywhere in the D which denies an attacker actual possession or an opportunity to play the ball is a PS whether or not it is a goal scoring opportunity (12.4.b). So in this instance, even if the ball had not gone outside the D and the attacker had a shot and the GK then deliberately lay on the ball it should be a PS as he (the GK) is denying the attack the opportunity to play the ball. The fact that they cannot score is irrelevant if you deem the GK's actions to be intentional. Which leads me to...

    2. Under the FIH rules (and I know it's different in NCAA etc.) it is not an offence to shoot at goal if the ball has not gone outside the D at a PC. The rule says "A goal cannot be scored [from a PC] until the ball has travelled outside the circle" (13.3.j). It does not say "A shot at goal cannot be made until the ball has travelled outside the circle." Anyone who says anything different is, I'm afraid, just plain wrong.

    I'll get down from this rickety soap box now... :)
     
  16. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    NE14HOCKEY, if I'm understanding you correctly, your second sentence is incorrect. If the PC has begun when the clock goes to 0:00, it is played out and only ends under the circumstances described in 13.4 of the Rules of Hockey.

    Unless you had a watch on and was timing the match yourself, you don't know. The coaches don't know. The players don't know. You don't have evidence that the game was ended prematurely. Making mistakes with timing is one of the few grounds on which a team has a probability of success in appealing a match. It is not a judgment decision by the umpire (as was the PS decision), it's a technical issue. But since there's no evidence, there's no appeal.

    This is why the entire coaching staff should be timing every match along with the umpires.

    Move on and focus on reforming the system that puts an umpire in the position that 50% of the time they're making a mistake, they're going to be called a cheat because they represent one of the clubs participating in that match.
     
  17. controller

    controller FHF Legend

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    Thanks RED and I don't think you were on a rant, as ever a great explanation of the rules and the interpretation of them
     
  18. controller

    controller FHF Legend

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    Unless you had a watch on and was timing the match yourself, you don't know. The coaches don't know. The players don't know. You don't have evidence that the game was ended prematurely. Making mistakes with timing is one of the few grounds on which a team has a probability of success in appealing a match. It is not a judgment decision by the umpire (as was the PS decision), it's a technical issue. But since there's no evidence, there's no appeal.

    This is why the entire coaching staff should be timing every match along with the umpires.

    Move on and focus on reforming the system that puts an umpire in the position that 50% of the time they're making a mistake, they're going to be called a cheat because they represent one of the clubs participating in that match.
    [/quote]

    But, on the timing issue, if you have indicated 2 minutes to go, and both teams saw that signal but then for that 2 minutes to disappear so soon must cause concern. If less than two minutes left then indicate less, that way players, coaching staff and spectators will not expect 2 minutes then get less.
    Technical issue, but you do expect umpires to be fair and equal 99% of the time in their decisions.

    The tea, has moved on and I will commend them on their comments about the game, they decided not to fully complained about the umpire but have made comments in how to manage the situation better for them and for the umpire. Though, he did not read the comments after the game as he had left I think he would understand what the ladies had written and why?

    The senior club member was myself but I think that was the easy bit to work out, we are doing our best to get the club to accept the umpires decision and we have now 31 umpires (level one) in the club out of 125 members.
    The ladies involved understand the reasons as I explained that if it continued the umpire could of reported them under match misconduct especially the one shout, " bloody hell, I hope he does not think that two minutes is like having sex" then he got no chance with me!! :eek:oh: :no: rofl
     
  19. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    It's strange how an experimental Rule that only lasted one year (1 Jan to 31 Dec 2004) should survive so long in the minds of so many participants?

    As to the OP:
    1. If it is likely the game would end during the playing of the PC, it's usual to blow for time early. It's unfortunate when too much time is allowed, and a quick PC ends before the 35 minutes.
    2. Yes the PS could be for intentional offence affecting attack's possession.
    3. Really not much the Home team can do. Don't give away late PCs. Realise that arguing with a rattled umpire makes decisions worse not better. Get the points back next week.

    When someone says an umpire is biased or has cheated, it's never that simple. What happens is that umpiring the same team every week causes blind spots to develop, and some scenarios (common in other hockey) are never practised. Players get to know what they can get away with, and the umpire stops seeing certain little things. So while the umpire thinks their decisions are right, they start looking biased to others.

    It doesn't need the sledgehammer remedy of 'banning' team umpires. It would probably be enough to rotate every club umpire around different teams, so as to regularly work with respected partners. That's difficult for a small club, but perhaps they can set up an exchange with neighbouring clubs?
     
  20. PEHC

    PEHC FHF Regular Player

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    No I mean if the corner started say at 00:00:10 then the whistle ends the game at 00:00:00 not when the corner breaks down/ball leaves the D uncontrolled etc. To end the game so it has to be played out is cheating in my book if time had not run out at the point he blew.
     

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