Management & Communication Penalty corner, the ball does not leave the circle

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by Pippinn, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Regular Player

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    In the situation where an attacking team takes a penalty corner and the ball doesn't leave the D, should we as umpires inform them and if so when?
    Is it just a bit too much of gotcha umpiring, to turn round and award a hit out or 23m restart when they thought they had scored?

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  2. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    They take the risk of stopping it that close to the circle or shooting that quickly so they get that much more time before the runner has closed them down.
    There are dozens of plays that don't rely on dodging the issue of ball leaving circle, and they chose one that does.
    You as an umpire have a long list of other details to think about and communicate. Their problem, not yours.
     
  3. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    It comes under the "coaching" element of umpiring where umpires are told not to do so

    11.7 Umpires must not coach during a match.

    Whether you feel it is coaching or not is up to you or your umpire coaches - I was told by a coach I should tell players when the ball has gone 5m in the 23m, especially for the close to the circle ones so there is no debate from attack/defence about the ball going in, I've had players say they appreciate it but I would imagine other umpires might say it's coaching and not to do it...
     
  4. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    An umpire is not there to prevent rule breaches, they are there to provide redress when a rule is breached and in some instances to try to stop anything dangerous happening as a result.

    For instance, if an umpire can see a player who is not protecting their feet with their stick when going in for a tackle, that umpire would not tell the player to protect their feet.
    Likewise, the ball not leaving the circle is not a foul, it is likely to be a mistake, but it is also possible that it is part of a tactical play which requires the defending team not knowing the ball has not left the circle. Thus giving the game away is unfair.

    Thus if there are no rule breaches and nothing obviously dangerous, keep quiet and let the players play.
     
  5. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I would hope that no umpire or umpire coach worth their salt would ever tell you not to do this...
     
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  6. george

    george FHF Starter

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    This is an interesting scenario, and as a result of the attack choosing to play so fine to the line, it puts the umpire in no end of difficulties.

    If the ball hasn't left the circle, the umpire is now holding a piece of information that nobody else is as aware of. Very much a scent of gotcha umpiring.

    As an ex-keeper, and from a discussion I have had with an ex national league keeper I was umpiring when this occurred, we find it difficult to second guess whether the umpire has the same view as the keeper of whether the ball has left the circle or not. There is no need for the umpire to communicate this at all. But communicating nothing leaves the GK guessing. Saying something helps the GK, and the attack.

    As an umpire, I am mentally registering whether enough has been done to allow a goal. Ball leaving the circle, height of shot etc.....
     
  7. AJF

    AJF FHF Legend

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    As an umpire who has had this happen at a fairly high level, I'm thinking about the best possible way to manage a potentially tough situation. I'm not going to be shouting it mid PC that the ball hasn't left the circle, however if there is an appropriate moment, I may mention it to them. That way, if it happens again and I don't give a goal, there are few complaints, they know that I'm keeping a close eye.
     
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  8. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    The issue really is just consistency, especially for non-appointed games - if I step "down" to do a club game meaning the teams get a L2 Midlands alongside whatever club umpire (who may or may not even be qualified) is provided and I'm using these sort of techniques and you end up with team getting one thing at one end and another at the other! For higher level games with another appointed colleague it's worth doing, just may not be always appropriate in other games. I'm loath to call the "out of the circle" one as it's an advantage to the attack but the 5m around the circle is beneficial for both teams so I'm, happier with it as a game management technique
     
  9. careeman

    careeman FHF Super Star

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    @AJF handling is a good overall management technique and reduces the surprise element if and when it happens again.
    Digressing slightly I see it as similar to reminding the defenders not to break early. I do this on the first PC of each half and again if they still ignore the advice and have someone sent to half way.

    Coaching? You decide.

    Back to the OP and if I don't think its left my circle I'll say to my colleague on the radio, 'that didn't go out'.
    I usually get a confirmation and we both know to manage the continuing PC accordingly. In the event of a 'goal' being scored we are both prepped to disallow it and present a united front on why its been disallowed.
    As for my call, I do it in a loud enough voice that any immediate players may hear it but not so loud as to be a distraction.

    It is a simple pre-requisite of a PC that it must leave the circle and every single team and player already knows that. As an umpire I'm purely judging whether this condition was met or not.
    Its not a seldom used technical rule requiring massive explanation when it occurs once in a blue moon.
     
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  10. AJF

    AJF FHF Legend

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    Nope, being proactive. That is all.
     
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  11. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    Off Topic Alert!!!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proactivity (the link should go to the place indicated by the text)
    The first paragraph of this article is almost an onomatopoeia. It was clearly written by a management consultant and it perfectly encapsulates the world that "proactive" and related words exist to serve.

    That said @AJF i agree with you.
     
  12. careeman

    careeman FHF Super Star

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    I genuinely misread that as provocative the first time. :confused::eek::)
     

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