"own goal" experiences this season so far

Discussion in '2013 Official FIH Rules Book' started by Zakalwe, Nov 21, 2012.

  1. Stretch

    Stretch FHF Legend

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    I hope this follows true in the south Diligent, I really really do!!
     
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  2. SAUmp

    SAUmp FHF Legend

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    keely - I don't think we disagree on the intent of the new rule. My only issue is the teething problems that defenders are having with it specifically pertaining to a smash taken outside the D at a PC - the keeper and postman are often not able to see past the 1st wave whether it was struck inside or out. In fact at the moment, the better the keeper and postman's reflexes are, the more likely they are to score an own goal in this scenario. As Diligent points out defenders will probably adapt as the season goes on. Most of the top sides here already have a number of variations on their PC set piece, so I would imagine that the smash and hope would be just one of those variations and will be dealt with appropriately with the defending side. From an umpiring perspective I think the new rule makes our job a little easier.
    What I have not seen yet is the "drag flick and hope" from outside the D. My interpretation on this (not yet tested) would be that this cannot be a legitimate shot on goal (it's outside the D) and the normal rules regarding danger would apply - if anyone needs to "bail" out of the way - FHD. Comments?
     
  3. Waxy

    Waxy FHF Legend

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    Undoubtedly true for the one or two runners at a short corner, but as a keeper with a split second to make a decision (or defender on the line) if there is a ball firing towards my goal from 'just outside' my D I'm always going to go for the save. Even if I have the mental capacity and line of sight to judge where it was taken from and any touches it may have taken in the time it takes for the ball to reach me, I'm also relying on the umpire having the same view/opinion as me. Better safe than sorry and hopefully the save will be a good one, but the previous rule gave a margin of protection against these brute tactics.

    More true of the mid / lower leagues which I play in than the upper ones but many defenders are like small puppies - always pouncing on the ball out of pure instinct. Sadly this is also the leagues most likely to use a 'smash and hope' more often. Not helping the grassroots hockey.
     
  4. jayjay

    jayjay FHF Legend

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    i agree with SAUmp that i'd likely call a drag flick from outside the D for danger. There's very little chance indeed that if it goes towards goal at all that it won't be dangerous for someone. after all, at PCs we crowd a bunch of players into a very small area and hope for the best ;)

    Stretch: i'm afraid i don't agree with your assessment that laypeople understand offside. i played football, and even most of my teammates didnt understand offside. and when you read people's comments on the web, you notice loads of people who watch a lot of football dont understand offside either. maybe that's different for rugby, i dont know.

    your reasoning of @keely's argument was not entirely fault free, unfortunately. yes, we got rid of offside, but thats its own rule in and by itself. it was a whole great aspect of the game, not an aspect of the rule. excluding a defender's touch in the D from the method of scoring was one aspect of the rule that was not parallel to this rule in many other major sports. your analogy was like saying "football allows people to play with their feet, hockey does not", while keely was pointing out a fine difference that made our game harder to understand. in fact there is no reason for defender's touches in the D before the ball crosses the goal line were previously not being counted as goals other than "thats just how it was". i, for one, dont at all mind this experimental rule. it teaches defenders to take better care of what they do in the D and does make life easier for the umpires, as any stick deflection in the D or a defender's body deflection now allow for a goal to be scored.
     
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  5. Stretch

    Stretch FHF Legend

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    I see what you're saying...can't agree though.

    I agree offside is hard to understand! But soccer aren't rushing out and changing the rules every season for better lay-person understanding...why do we in hockey??

    I suppose the fundamental feeling I have is that we have a scoring area in our game. You should have to make your attempts to score from inside that area. That does not seem complicated. If the team trying to score has not played the ball from within the scoring area, they can't score. Simple!

    If that makes the game too hard to understand, why bother having a scoring area at all? Just get rid of it and allow shots from anywhere on the pitch. Just like soccer...
     
  6. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Everything is a balance, Stretch - are the costs outweighed by the benefits? In the case of having a scoring circle, the cost of decreased safety currently outweighs the benefit of increased simplicity. That may change the future with subtle changes to other rules, who knows.

    I agree with jayjay that your argument about offside in football is flawed. Also, your examples of dangerous incidents in matches you're playing in shows the umpires don't understand the rules (i.e. the definition of a shot at goal has not changed so a drag flick cannot be taken outside the circle) or are not interpreting them as intended (i.e. DANGER STILL EXISTS).

    Bad umpiring leads to bad hockey and that is not because of the rules, it's in spite of them.

    Anecdotally, in Canada we're certainly not seeing any increased incidents of balls being smashed towards the circle. It occurs with the same frequency as before as an attacker tries to find a teammate's stick. We're not seeing any increase in dangerous incidents, no sudden change the standards of what constitutes danger. So it's not only possible that your experience does not reflect all of hockey's, but as Diligent mentioned, it just might get better.
     
  7. wdyw

    wdyw FHF Legend

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    Do you think the same layperson would understand why a corner is given if a footballer kicks the ball into his own net from a freekick at football? Or why a by goal kick is given when the ball goes directly into the net from an attacking indirect free kick?
     
  8. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    No, but football is currently the most popular sport in the world. Hockey isn't even close. We need to change things in order to increase participation and fans. That's the difference.
     
  9. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Deegum posted about soccer and hockey and why are rules so bad that no one (that is, Deegum) can understand them. It was all so far off topic that it had to go in the Off Topic thread.

    Can we leave football for now, and allow those of us who've had a full season of the own goal to share experience with those who are early in the new season?
     
  10. jaduong

    jaduong FHF Legend

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    such a pity that England Hockey don't compile a list of top own-goal scorers (or if they have i cannot find it!) to go alongside the top scorer stats. I might stand a chance of topping a scoring chart for once...
     
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  11. Aussie Mark

    Aussie Mark FHF Starter

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    So after no obvious own goal scenarios in games this season, the other weekend I had two in one game. The second one was a deflection off the defender in the circle as the free hit was taken outside the 25 and down the other end, so I didn't see it too well. The first one was a classic - team attacking hits ball into the circle and only the defender and the keeper were in the circle. Defender goes to sweep the ball away but only catches the ball on the underside of the stick so it deflects and spins past the keeper into the goal. As the umpire I saw it happen in slow motion and suddenly turned around and gave the goal, much to the amusement of the attacking team and the embarrassment of the defending team. What's more, the team that 'scored' both goals has hardly scored any all season and managed a 2-2 draw against a much stronger team.
     
  12. Rajulicious852

    Rajulicious852 FHF All Time Great

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    That sir is just barmy.
     
  13. The Wall

    The Wall FHF Starter

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    Quick question regarding own goals, ball hit from outside the D by attacker, defender tries to jump out of the way and clips his foot and goes in... Goal?
     
  14. sanabas

    sanabas FHF All Time Great

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    Assuming the defender touched it in the circle, yeah.
     
  15. Goalie64

    Goalie64 FHF All Time Great

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    Of course. Alas, what else would it be?
    Assuming the ball in was safe and legal.
    Any touch by a defender/keeper - foot/body/stick/back stick is going to be an own goal.
     
  16. The Wall

    The Wall FHF Starter

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    I thought as much. Wasn't sure with it hitting the foot. Wasn't sure if the rule needed a stick, not just any body part.
     
  17. lotty541

    lotty541 FHF Regular Player

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    My own goal experience is that I kicked the ball away it hit the post and stayed near. None of my defence were able to clear it so I ran out went to kick but accidently kicked it into my own goal. :/
     
  18. BossFHockey

    BossFHockey FHF All Time Great

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    This would be quite a list for all of them....
    my experience with this rule is that the attackign team just crash the ball in all the time again just like before they brought in the moving 5 yard rule
     
  19. Adnan Mirza

    Adnan Mirza FHF Starter

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    I got a question bout own goal.
    Does ball has to be played from inside 25 line for the own goal?
     
  20. jaduong

    jaduong FHF Legend

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    inside the circle by any party, not inside the 25.
     

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