opinions on calling the umpire?

Discussion in 'Game Management & Communication' started by foozbear, Nov 19, 2008.

  1. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    This almost happens every week during our games.

    we are umpiring and from the first whistle blow in a circle its a constant barrage of "ask the other umpire".

    Now we have clear chats before game...we understand the signals that we will give each other if we need assistance.

    One of the big things we do not do is SIGNAL....if NOT asked for one.

    For me the constant asking is like crying wolf.

    the umpires have to STOP time...talk to each other...make a decision and play on...at every decision it can draw out a game by about 10-20 minutes. When you are also running to a tight schedule...and have stop time for OTHER reasons (lost ball, injury, cards and other miscelaneous stoppages) the game then runs from 70 minutes to 100 minutes IF we have to stp because players are asking umpires to "ask the other umpire"

    I will look at the other umpire...and read his body language...if his language says I saw something different then I will ask him...but MOST of the time his body language isnt showing that.

    now my question is...

    Is this a common practice in other countries? I know some of the players asking are olympians..or ex olympians and the umpires at those levels have headsets that mean they can ask quickly without stopping time.

    what do you do to distract players from asking all the time?

    my signal is clear...the whistle is strong...and I am walking the way of the hit as if to signal my intent. I look the players in the eyes...yet they still have to rush up and say "ask the other umpire"

    so far I tell them..I am 5 meteres from the infraction...he has a player blocking his view...who would have the best view? this stops em asking...but every whistle ends the same way.

    EVENTUALLY they get it....but by then my opinion is...I aint talking to that other guy no matter what, cos if I do...they will start up again. I still look at body language...but the crying wolf has spoilt their chances.

    does any body have anything I can use to help tame the appeals?
     
  2. nerd_is_the_word

    nerd_is_the_word FHF All Time Great

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    Had a player at a tournament once who had a habit of questioning EVERY decision. ended up drawing one of his games and had a talk to the UM beforehand, got the best advice i have ever heard:

    dont look at them, once they start up make a habit of looking away from them everytime you blow the whistle, if they cant catch your eye they are far less likely to complain.

    If after that they keep going on, i would just tell them to keep quite or spend time on the sidelines
     
  3. aussieump

    aussieump FHF All Time Great
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    Foozbear

    Not sure why you would be stopping the game to chat with your co-ump for every call. You say your signals are strong, whistle tone is clear.

    I do not mind if a player asks a question but not at the detriment of the game.

    Once you have awarded a decision and you have warned them about the dissent aspect by continually questioning your call, use the control measures available to you. The first would be to use the up 10, I am sure they will cotton on quickly.

    I do not recommend undo stoppages in play unless it is a major call eg goal/ps that your co-ump or yourself can provide some info towards.

    Be assertive use your body language, voice and eyes but do not get agressive, just remain calm and use the control measures. As I said use the up 10 another control measure would be speaking with the Capt. and laying down the law and geting them to pass that back to their players. I am sure the Capt does not want to wear the YC for their players over this type of call.

    Don't engage in to much conversation with players as it invites them to talk/appeal

    Hope this helps



    AU
     
  4. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    I dont stop the game for each call....it seems they want to though.

    I too believe its at a detriment of the game.

    I had to last year at the insistance of one team calling for the other umpire....called both captains AND the other umpire...told them "I'm not going to call over the other umpire for each call. I will determine if I need him or not." then sent them on their way...then asked the umpire if HE saw anything...to which he replied No. I blew the corner as originaly signaled.

    no-one asked for the other umpire for the rest of the game.

    I still think this was the extreme..and dont want to have to go to that again.

    Ill try your other methods...I have another team this weekend that loves backchat and asking for the other umpire...good chance to apply new knowledge.
     
  5. Neo

    Neo Technical Moderator

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    Another option is to make it clear at the start of the game when the two teams are lined up.. e.g. that the umpires work together as a team, or any other statement that may help preempt habitual behaviour by one team or another - it doesn't have to be much, and can be spoken as part of the "have a good game" greeting you pass on to the captains/teams.


    And I stand my ground with decisions the other umpire makes, because we are a team, and there's nothing worse than undermining your co-umpire, because then you encourage the querulous teams to do it even more. (Different matter if I'm asked for assistance... otherwise if a player tries it on me as the support umpire, I just say "it's their call / their circle and they are closer to the action")
     
  6. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    If this became too frequent, I'd just say "I already did...get on with the game"..... you are constantly communicating with your colleague(or you should be) and any player with a brain should be able to see this.

    You rarely need to stop play to know whether he/she saw something you didn't.

    I have occasionally been asked politely, at set-plays, and have not had a problem with a brief consultation.
    (I usually glance, briefly and unobtrusively, at my colleague, anyway, before signalling a goal...just in case!)
     
  7. controller

    controller FHF Legend

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    This has been a problem for years in how umpires should communicate during a game.

    I will always agree with my colleague as much as I can, I will always give a thumbs up signal to him/her when I can on their decisions, so it looks like I have seen and agreed with their decision.

    But communication starts from before the game, I will talk and ask my colleague on how they want to play the game, what is dangerous, etc, how will deal with chat and so on, if the players see you talking prior to the game, then the confidence builds up from there.

    Also, I will always do the toss of the coin at least 10 minutes before the start of the game, if this is possible, to allow for the teams to warm-up and do what they need to, also at the toss-up, with my colleague, I will ask them to abide by the rules, play the advantage as we do and get on with the game, then we will all have a good game.

    If you can get to do this politely and confidently then it will show that you are ready and willing to umpire.
     
  8. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    we do this to an extent...but again I seem to be the one to appraoch this in a fashion youve described.

    I had been pulling back from telling the players before the game.

    I thank you for this advice. I will start being more proactive at the start of the game. It sets the tone early and can also delay any need for use of cards.

    I have a tough match this weekend with the infamous team that backchats like mad...a player who thinks im a bad umpire...a coach that doesnt understand manufactured fouls....

    this advice will be used and Ill hopefully avoid any repeat problems.
     
  9. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    Don't pre-judge it, foozbear, if you are well-prepared, you'll be fine :)

    There are little one-liners which some umpires use at the start of games which often pre-empt 'misbehaviour'.

    You have to find words which suit your style.
     
  10. John

    John FHF Legend

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    Everyone knows this is nowhere

    I suggest the easy response of "I don't need to ask the other umpire as I am certain of my decision".

    If they continue to ask at every opportunity then I can only assume its deliberate attempt to break down play and therefore potentially merits a warning and a card.
     
  11. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    I personally would never say that, John, as it suggests, IMO, that I never make a mistake.... :rolleyes:
    I learnt early-on that, even when you are absolutely sure you are right, you could be wrong!

    I might say that I was 'confident' in my decision, but I think you show that with your body language.
     
  12. Handmedown

    Handmedown FHF Regular Player

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    The disengaged umpire should have his/her assistance signals down after the whistle has been blown. The players shouldn't be able to turn around and see what the disengaged umpire signaled. If the engaged umpire misses an offence then the disengaged umpire should have blown it (if it was appropriate to), or stopped time and rendezvous with the other umpire. The players should have no part in the decision making process of the game.
     
  13. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Handmedown it is preferable that the disengaged, or let's say 'supporting', umpire does not signal at all.

    It is very difficult, when you are sure of what happened across the other side of the pitch, to keep your hands down and suppress all 'leakage' of body language, that's what must be done.

    Your partner must have first go at every decision in his/her own area. Leave it a few seconds, and only when there is no signal or call by your partner, and it is a serious offence, does the support umpire blow.

    If, in the far circle, your partner is determined to hang themself, then you must let it run. But when, at last, you see the look that says "what happened", then you can signal. And if the situation is still unclear, then it should always be the engaged umpire who stops time and comes across for a discussion.
     
  14. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Diligent has it absolutely right. Don't signal when you're the supporting umpire unless your colleague asks for your help.
     
  15. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    I think Handmedown suggested that the disengaged umpire DOESNT have any signals up...until asked.

    good advice....Im going in witha new sense of something new....hopefully I remember it all.

    thank you everyone for the advice.
     
  16. controller

    controller FHF Legend

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    Great advice if you are with another umpire doing a league game as appointed umpire, but, the disengage signals happen so much in the lower end of the games, so much, because they never receive coaching at club level for their umpires unless they join the local HUA.
     
  17. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Agreed Controller that lower leagues often get both umpires signalling and even blowing at the same time, but that doesn't mean nothing can be done.

    There is the one-off coaching opportunity at the Level 1 Umpire assessment. And if every coached/appointed umpire includes it in their pre-match chat before any game with a club umpire, then the 'one umpire at a time' technique will gradually diffuse into those lower leagues. And of course those club umpires reading FHF should give it a go.

    In England a few county HUAs are starting to spread their coaching out to club umpires, and allocating county umpires as mentors to clubs. Devon County HUA, with their 'Reinvigorating Umpiring' scheme are much more advanced than my own county, although we are working to catch up.
     
  18. aussieump

    aussieump FHF All Time Great
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    In all events that I present at the signal on demand is what is being taught and being reinforced.

    It would seem that we are ahead in the praactice of having Regional and metro Communtiy Umpire Cosches out coaching local club umpires and their senior umpires into the system that is being taught across the state.

    It should also be the local clubs responsibility to provide training/education for their umpires and they should be supported by the local/region HUA or National bodies
     
  19. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    It's one of the hardest things to do, I've found, because you cannot always see that your colleague is looking for help and then respond as promptly as is essential for it to work effectively.
    It helps, I think when your colleague wears a peaked cap....when you see the peak come UP, you can deduce he may be looking your way....it's something I try to include in the pre-match chat.
    It's not too obvious to the players, either.......although at times you want them to see you are 'consulting'!
    One thing which really helps, IMO, is to be CLOSE to your colleague, and well-positioned so you are each in the other's 'sight-line'.

    I was once asked by an experienced ump with whom I'd never blown before "Where should I look for you when I really need your input?".....it was a very relevant question, because I had reached a level of 'relative immobility' which meant I just couldn't be up on his 23 line AND be able to cover an early break upfield.
    Jim Patel once advised me not to go further upfield than my fitness could cope with...it's better to be a bit further from your colleague than to be caught-out in your own area of responsibility.
     
  20. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    On the other hand, I would advise umpires not to wear a peaked cap at all unless absolutely necessary (e.g. a very bright low sun or driving rain) as the peak shields your eyes from the players and prevents you making proper eye contact with them. It also suggests to the players, subconsciously at least, that you have something to "hide" or you're not sure about what you're doing.

    You pays your money and makes your choice!

    In terms of establishing eye contact with your colleague, an exaggerated movement of your head in his/her direction should normally be enough to indicate that you want help.
     

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