More things to learn

Discussion in 'Game Management & Communication' started by Ian Rich, Nov 23, 2008.

  1. Ian Rich

    Ian Rich FHF Newbie

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    1. One of the coaches yesterday was running the side line coaching his team is there a specific area he should do this from.

    2. The spectators were also coaching the team with statements like pass it on out wide, win the pc.

    As you can tell it wasn't the a great atmosphere for the game. Playing advantage at a my lower league level is the harder option than blowing for everything which seems to be what they are used to.
     
  2. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Unless your league has technical regulations addressing this issue, there is nothing in the Rules. Usually, the problem isn't actually that the coach is roaming too far, it's that in the process of roaming the coach is either physically getting in the way of the umpire or engaging in dissenting conduct - both of which need to be dealt with. If neither is occurring, there's no real cause for concern so just leave them be.

    Sounds like a great atmosphere to me - passionate coaches and actual, real-live spectators? Fantastic.

    I'm very happy when the spectators are trying to coach the players - that means they're not coaching me. ;) And no, there's nothing at all wrong with it.

    Don't look at these people as adversaries who are getting under your skin. They are the reason you're there. It's up to you to do your job well, win them over and then you can all enjoy the experience together.

    Sometimes, advantage isn't the best option for lower-league players simply because they lack the ability to take advantage of the situation. This is the challenge and the art in your craft - determining whether a free hit truly is better.

    That issue aside, it is often a learning curve for the players, though - even at higher levels, I've found that when I play more advantage than what the players are accustomed to it takes several games before they understand what I'm trying to do and trust me that I've seen the foul and am going to handle everything the best way (taking it back if no real advantage accrues, go back for cards, etc.). It can't be emphasized enough that this process will work out acres better if you verbalize what you're thinking - "play through if you can", "I've seen it", "go on, try it", "play advantage" - and in time you will win them over. :)
     
  3. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    I agree...lively spectators add to the experience...even when they do 'tease' the umpires (as long as it remains 'good-natured')
     
  4. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    sounds like an average game.

    as for the coach....there is nothing in the rules...but I do try to keep em within the 25 lines AND as far from the side field as they can stand it. If they creep up I tell em sometimes I might be watching the play and suddenly bust out...I might not see em and then we have one umpire down and maybe a coach too.

    they tend to watch out for me and I dont have to worry.

    I did see a friend of mine umpiring and a coach did get in her way and she couldnt umpire for a good part of the rest of the season due to her clash with an umpire.

    thats why I ask politely for my usage of all of the green area as much as possible.

    yesterday while TD'n I thought it would be great if we had a second line for coaches and players...even one for subs...but Im not sure that could happen.
     
  5. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Ian, as an umpire you're just going to have to learn to ignore the crowd - if you're lucky enough to get one. They're simply not under your jurisdiction. As others have said, just enjoy the fact that they're there and use them to help you put in a better performance.
     
  6. Trig

    Trig FHF Legend

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    It can depend if the crowd are within the caged area of the pitch or not.

    If they are in the caged area, you can do something about it, if they are not, you can't.
     
  7. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    Caged area? ???

    Anything to do with that lion of yours?
     
  8. Trig

    Trig FHF Legend

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    Alot of pitches have a fence around the pitches, if the crowd are within that area you can control them. If they can watch from outside that fence, you cannot.
     
  9. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I guess that will vary from league to league, Trig, according to the specific league/competition regulations. But even if it is the case, I would suggest that best practice would be for an umpire to ignore anything that is said by members of the crowd.

    If you get into a "battle of wills" with a member of the crowd you've got nowhere to go: you can't card them, or - in England - use an MMO report as they're not players; you could ask them to leave the cage, but that just means that you'll let them know that their abuse is getting to you, so they'll continue to abuse you from their new vantage point; you can report them to the relevant authorities at the game and ask for them to be removed, but it's unlikely that this will have much impact and may even make you look over-officious; you can report them to the relevant league after the game, but I'm not sure what the league could do...

    All-in-all, I'd say it was just best to focus on the task in hand and let them have their "fun". They'll soon grow bored if you don't react.
     
  10. hockey-legs

    hockey-legs FHF Regular Player

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    we were told at the course (Ian and myself) that if there was trouble from the crowd of the opposing team you can speak to the captain of that team and they have to sort something out, and if that doesnt happen we can card the captain because they arent demonstrating control or something

    what does everyone make of that?has anyone ever done that?
     
  11. controller

    controller FHF Legend

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    Scary decision to do, especially if there is no fencing or security for you as an umpire.

    I would suggest that you speak to the captain and try and get him to deal with the matter but if it does not work, it is time to pretend that you are deaf and blind and forget all about it, unless they are stopping you from doing your job.
     
  12. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Sorry, but it doesn't work for me. How can a captain be held responsible for the behaviour of the spectators from his team, many of whom he will not even know? Honestly, the best thing to do is simply to ignore it.

    If the abuse is so bad that you feel endangered - or it becomes "illegal" (i.e. racist, sexist) - I would simply stop the game and, with your colleague, tell both captains that you're not prepared to continue the game until the offending spectator(s) have been removed from the complex and that you expect them along with any club officials in the area to make sure that happens. If they can't - or won't - do it then you'd have to abandon the game, report the abandonment and let the relevant authorities deal with it. But that would an absolute last resort.
     
  13. nerd_is_the_word

    nerd_is_the_word FHF All Time Great

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    hockey-legs, this is a contentious one. There are two pieces here:

    1) the spectators are coaching the players

    2) the spectators are abusive towards the umpires/opposition players

    on issue 1) there is nothing you can do about it, I have seen it at every hockey game ive been to. I would consider it normal for people on the sideline to yell to the players.

    on issue 2)I have done it once, but it was a mixture of coach and spectators, and said spectators stood right next to the dugout of the team they were going for and I knew which team it was they were going for.

    redumpire, i dont think that the umpire should be the one ignoring it. We are there out of our own time to help the game. its like the old 'if your offended by it then just ignore it' In a massive game like a grand final or in a stadium with hundreds of fans etc I will admit that it would be stupid to make the captain quite the crowd down, but when there are ten people sitting around the pitch then its a good chance the captain will either know the person, or at least be able to quieten them by saying something like 'look if you dont be quiet then i will be sent off'

    But it has to get fairly abusive before that point, simple 'it didnt hit his foot' and stuff like that i would ignore, I think my point would be when they are yelling curses.
     
  14. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    NITW, I just don't think you have the authority to send the captain off for failing to control the crowd, unless it's a specific provision written into your local competition regulations. It certainly isn't a rule of hockey and I can imagine some captains getting very uppity if you try to do something that you're not entitled to do.

    As I said, if it got really bad, I'd just stop the game and ask the captains to deal with it, saying that I'll start again when the offenders have been removed. That way it's the players' problem, not yours.
     
  15. nerd_is_the_word

    nerd_is_the_word FHF All Time Great

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    red, i think our really bad isnt that far apart, I will agree with you in that if i didnt know who the person was then i would call both captains and do exactly as you say. I most of the game i do though I will know which team the person is barracking for. In that case I feel it would be more appropriate to make that captain deal with it rather than potentially ending the game for a team that has absolutely nothing to do with whats going on.

    As for being inside the rules, at a top level tournament, i would simply have a chat to the TD or whoever was close about having them removed. But in local fixtures I think common sense has to prevail, I would rather sit captains down for ten minutes than send the message that abuse is fine.
     
  16. Goalie64

    Goalie64 FHF All Time Great

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    I have green carded a captain (and in another game the captain received a yellow) for the coach's comments about the umpiring.

    As for spectators, when I'm umpiring at our home pitch I'll ask them to stay behind the sideline of the football pitch marking - only 3 feet or so back from the hockey lines, but it gives me enough clear space.
    I believe that in the UK the captain is responsible for their spectators within the field area, but if (again at my home pitch) the spectators went back only another 3 feet they would then be outside the low fence surrounding the pitch, and out of both my and the captain's jurisdiction.

    Quite frankly, the extra distance makes no difference to me. If I heard an offensive remark from anyone, be they coach, spectator or another player I would comment (along the lines of - that's out of order - no more! - and make the captain aware). If repeated by a player, a card; by a coach or spectator in my area of control, a card to the captain and if from outside the pitch area, then a note on the team sheet that goes to the league each week.
     
  17. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Fair enough. The captain can reasonably be expected to control the members of his bench.


    There is no "UK" provision for this Goalie64. If there is any provision at all it will be the responsibility of the English, Scots or Welsh Associations; but I'm 99.9% sure that there is no such regulation in England. There may be at individual league level, but I don't think it's an EH rule. I'm not able to comment on the position in Scotland or Wales.

    _________________________________________________

    I must admit that I'm a little baffled as to why we're worrying about crowd control when managing the 22 to 32 players, plus assorted coaches, managers, physios etc., that we are expected to manage is a hard enough task! As Tom Peters and Robert Waterman said in the "seminal" management book In Search of Excellence: "Stick to the knitting - stay with the business that you know."
     
  18. johnreiss

    johnreiss FHF Top Player

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    I too have no problem with the banter that occasionally comes from spectators. Mostly it is good natured and sometime the comments are quite funny.

    Occasionally the abuse gets personal which is totally unacceptable. I remember a spectactor calling a lady polayer a useless fat ***.when she failed to stop a ball cleanly and this this sort of comment or using the f word is totally unacceptable and needs to be stamped on.

    Personally, I seek to have a word with the offender along the lines of yyour comments are OTT and inflamatory. Please desitisr otherwisae you will be asked to leave. If they continue to be abusive the threat is carried out and if they refuse, the only available sanction is to ask the centre managemet to intervene with the assistance of the Police if necessary.

    I've never known it get to that stage as if they continued in the same vain with the police they would probably end up in the cells! Drastic possibly but it would have the desired effect!
     
  19. Goalie64

    Goalie64 FHF All Time Great

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    red - I know that a few years ago when my club received an accusation of abuse from a random spectator, (found not guilty) but one result of the enquiry was that we were requested by our region to keep spectators outside the pitch area. I had assumed this was a general directive, and aimed at making umpires lives easier.

    In view of your note, perhaps it was just the region (East in England) showing common sense.
     
  20. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    I am completely with redumpire on this....it is not the umpires' job to control unruly spectators, and I'd have no intention of attempting to do so, beyond a polite request or a bit of light-hearted return banter.
    Nor is it the captains' responsibility, although you might ask for them to do what they can.
    The management of the centre...whose responsibility 'crowd(hah)control' probably is.... are usually notable by their absence in such cases, so I would, after suitable warnings, walk away and let 'em get on with it. Follow-up with a written report.
    If things are getting really out of hand the police should be called.
     

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