Making footie more like a proper sport

Discussion in 'General Hockey Chit-Chat' started by Ravennghorde, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF Super Star

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    Interesting. Make the ball smaller and give them a stick...

    "Instead, there could be two periods of 30 minutes with the clock stopped whenever the ball goes out of play.

    Lawmaking body the International Football Association Board (Ifab) says matches only see about 60 minutes of "effective playing time" out of 90.

    The idea is one of several put forward in a new strategy document designed to address football's "negativities".

    Another proposal would see players not being allowed to follow up and score if a penalty is saved - if the spot-kick "is not successful", play would stop and a goal-kick awarded.

    Other ideas include a stadium clock linked to a referee's watch and a new rule allowing players to effectively pass to themselves or dribble the ball when taking a free-kick."

    Football reforms: Scrapping 45-minute half to be debated at Ifab
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40311889
     
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  2. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    Just take away offside and shrink the goal width to half.

    And it's meant to be football, stop letting them use the rest of their body.

    And it just encourages people to waste their time, so don't let them score from outside the box.
     
  3. Folmer

    Folmer FHF All Time Great

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    Start with rolling subs. This will speed the game up significantly and you will have less time wasted.
    Then get rid of offside. Makes the game more dynamic and there is less discussion (plus you don't have to explain to your wife how it works :p)
    Let them get used to these changes for some time, then start using real time.
     
  4. The.Rampage.Rado

    The.Rampage.Rado FHF Legend

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    I think only rolling subs and lack of offsides will make the game dynamic enough. And also 2 video umpire calls per game will take out the discussion off the vital moments.

    But as everything else those decisions are up to the (football) politics and they does now care for the game. It's enough for the money to keep pouring and the deals to be signed so I doubt any of those will come in mainstream (national football leagues) soon.
     
  5. Lostaam

    Lostaam FHF Starter

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    introduction of videoref

    But no way shrinking the ball. Would be bad for visibility. The small ball is a serious downside in hockey.
     
  6. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF Super Star

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    Self pass is a great idea to get the game flowing, the rest is so so - people already pay £30-£100+ for a game, even if the ball is only in play for an average of 60 minutes, the experience is 90+ and you can have tension and discussions. Penalty I think is an odd one as the ball is dead (like a PS) if you miss during a shootout but not during normal play.

    Offside - no no no, it must remain. It works in hockey as you don't have everyone able to chuck massive aerials and you can't compete for them - with football anyone can hoof a ball in the air and people challenge to receive it so no offside would just encourage people to chuck it into the box constantly and goal hanging
     
  7. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    I agree to an extent. I would change the rules so that you cannot be offside when the ball is in the penalty box you are are attacking. If a defence cannot mark a player in the penalty box, then devil mend them.
     
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  8. Inselaffen

    Inselaffen FHF Super Star

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    how about making the players take some man the f up pills and stop rolling around the ground like a bunch of fairies. That would help!
     
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  9. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF Super Star

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    The antics are designed to get free kicks / penalties / players sent off. I don't see it as any different from running into the D and putting the ball on a foot or stick blocking, all are wrong
     
  10. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    There is an important difference.
    Going down when you have not been fouled is cheating. It is attempting to make the referee/umpire think that a person has done something they have not done.

    Placing a ball on a foot is creating a foul and is not cheating. It may be that the rules allow for undesirable behaviour, but it is not cheating, it involves breaking no rules and involves no dishonesty.
    An equivalent would be a) taking a dive as footballers are prone to doing, b) claiming for a foot/back-stick when you know one has not happened or something similar.
     
  11. redumpire

    redumpire FHF Staff
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    In what way is football not "a proper sport"?

    Why do we need to set up artificial barriers? It's quite possible to be a fan of football and hockey.
     
  12. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    I don't think anyone is putting up barriers.
    It is common for the underdog to chide and tease the dominant party in a good natured way. That is what is happening here.

    It is also the case that professional football has much to criticise and can be said that it has a negative effect on other sports so criticism is appropriate if measured and considered.

    Furthermore the mooted rule changes are basically making the game more like top-level hockey. So we have an opportunity to feel rather vindicated as a sport. That is nice.
     
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  13. sanabas

    sanabas FHF All Time Great

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    Do you want a list? ;)

    Soccer doesn't do it for me. But I don't think it needs to be 'fixed' in any way. Changing what I don't like about it would turn it into a different sport.
     
  14. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    if i may, I am a fan of both sports, but there are elements of football which could do with being fixed.
    Time wasting and play-acting are two of those very obvious ones.
    The use of rolling substitutions should be encouraged in any sport not only for the benefits it brings the game, but from a physiological perspective it is much much better for players.
     
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  15. sanabas

    sanabas FHF All Time Great

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    Shouldn't be part of the sport, are tacked on bits, especially at high level, that don't occur anywhere near as much at a low level, and aren't really on the list of things I don't like about soccer. There are other things that annoy me more that could be changed about the culture of it without changing the game itself, i.e. post goal rubbish. But a lot of what makes it, for me, a sport I'm not a fan of, couldn't be changed without turning it into a fundamentally different game.

    What benefits, and why is it much better for players?

    At lower levels, club levels, junior levels, I agree all sports should have rolling subs rather than straight up substitutions. Helps a lot with participation, with people getting game-time, etc. But at top levels, I don't think that one is inherently better for every sport. I've played both flavours of rugby, with both flavours of substitutions. I think rolling subs are a contributing factor to league being worse than union at high levels. A minor one, but still a factor. As a player, I preferred straight subs. For hockey, I prefer rolling subs. Probably at least partly in both cases because it was what I was used to. A particular sport changing from one to the other will certainly make for different strategy, but I don't think it's going to be inherently better.
     
  16. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    The high level is what people watch and what makes the money for the sport. It is what gets people into the sport and it is the public face of the sport. Therefore it has to be right.
    Why does Hockey keep changing its rules? Simply because it sees areas of the game where change would be beneficial. (offside, no offside, self pass, use of the stick above the shoulder)
    Soccerball is doing the same. Good sensible sports do this frequently. Sensible sports use measure and sense when making actual changes.


    Firstly, you don't have to sub every 5 minutes if rolling subs are available, but it gives you the opportunity. You can choose to only have 3 subs if you want and space them as you always have, but with rolling subs, first the game is not stopped and it cannot be used for time-wasting, secondly you cannot have the farcical situation where 3 subs have been used and a player becomes injured so the team has to compete with one fewer players.

    Rolling subs are better for the players for a variety of health related reasons:
    1. Players can take regular short rests. This, if managed, will aid their recovery and ensure that they stay fitter for longer.
    2. You will not have players trying to hide injuries when going off to get treatment would mean their team is disadvantaged.
    3. Teams will not pressure players into playing on when injured as they can always be replaced.


    Rolling subs are better for the game for a variety of reasons:
    1. Players are less fatigued at the end so games will run less risk of petering out as players get tired.
    2. Games will not be interrupted so frequently and coaches will not be able to waste time quite as easily.
    3. Coupled with the idea of stopping the clock at various instances, we won't have the idiotic scenario when no one knows how long the game will last as we won't get this arbitrary addition of time at the end of the game.
     
  17. BossFHockey

    BossFHockey FHF All Time Great

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    Video ref is the only real change i want to see, so many dives, bad tackles, off the ball incidents, etc are missed due to line of sight obstructions of the ref and/or linesmen. I remember a tevez goal in the premier league where he was about 5 yards offside, that somehow was missed by the lines men and ref, they showed the video of the goal on the big screen for a replay the ref saw how bad an error it was but then couldn't do anything because he was/is not allowed to change his decision based on that replay or some other BS along those lines. The use of a video ref for the diving alone would cut most of it out.
     
  18. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF Super Star

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    There is an important difference between what I said and you replied to. I am not talking about diving where there is no contact.

    Players going down and rolling around "like a bunch of fairies" (I skipped over the slur (unintentional or not) towards gay people in the comment I replied to) happens when players have been fouled, the player is doing it to get the reaction, if they are tripped and exaggerate, they are still fouled like stick blocking is a foul against the defender. Exaggeration is an unattractive part of the game like putting the ball on a foot which may not be against the rules any more but FIH did say when they removed the "forced foul" rule that all such offences could be punished under existing rules, suggesting they weren't per se removing the foul.
     
  19. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF Super Star

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    Clubs are not allowed to replay decisions like that during the game for the reason that it might incite the fans etc. Tottenham did it when they "scored" in a game against Manchester United but the goal was not given even though it crossed the line by a good couple of metres but the goalie cleared it before anyone could clearly see if it had gone in. They showed the replay at half time and were fined by the league for doing it
     
  20. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    I don't disagree with the sentiment of what you are saying. I agree totally that morally they are both questionable.
    However the rules materially disagree as far as I can see.

    In the Rules of the Game (Association Football) on P39, under "Cautionable Offences:
    "A player is cautioned and shown the yellow card if he commits any of the following seven offences:
    • unsporting behaviour
    • dissent by word or action
    • persistent infringement of the Laws of the Game
    • delaying the restart of play
    • failure to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a corner kick, free kick or throw-in
    • entering or re-entering the field of play without the referee’s permission
    • deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission "


    In accompaniment to this we have P125, "Cautions for unsporting behaviour" The sixth item in the list for reasons to caution (yellow card) a player for unsporting behaviour reads:
    "attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)"

    When all this is read alongside P37 under "Infringements and Sanctions" where we see the following: (Note the introductory line is essential context to this and the list itself is insufficient)
    "A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
    • kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
    • trips or attempts to trip an opponent
    • jumps at an opponent
    • charges an opponent
    • strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
    • pushes an opponent
    • tackles an opponent
    "

    we can see, there is a specific (as specific as the laws of association football allow, they were clearly written by defence lawyers) requirement to punish feigning and play acting. The defence of players is that "contact is not allowed" which is indeed true, but it is only a foul, similar to hockey, if there is an adverse outcome to the afflicted, advantage must be given. An adverse outcome is not achieved by throwing oneself to the ground. That is clearly defined as unsporting behaviour.
    Feigning and play acting are a major part of football and it is obvious that the application of these rules has failed to remove these cretinous behaviours from the game. Furthermore it is arguably the case that the widespread and successful application of such behaviour has bled over into other sports due, possibly, to the exposure of football in the public realm being such that top-level players who act in this way are seen widely by young and old alike and successful behaviour has, by way of human instinct, a habit of being repeated by others.

    This is a material difference from someone placing the ball deliberately (but not dangerously) on the foot of an opponent in hockey. If you can find me a rule which outlaws that act I will agree with you. But at the moment there is a difference between them and that difference is that one is expressly forbidden and the other is not.
     

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