Keeper - kicking back - field player Rule 10.1

Discussion in 'PS and Goalkeeping' started by BlackCat, May 10, 2007.

  1. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    I guess we're just going to have to wait until we see it happen in an FIH match. I promise I'll pass along any info I get.
     
  2. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Redumpire it's Rule 2.3f that field players sub within 3m of halfway, and 2.3g permits GK to sub near their goal. For regs we have the briefing which David quoted.

    But what precisely are the "normal" parts of Rule 2.3? The briefing would certainly include b to f, and is specific in excluding h (stop time is for GK only). But as for g (sub GK near goal)... Keely seemed to think it applies, and I would prefer it didn't.

    Sorry Keely I can't wait for the internationals. Chances are the coming weeks of Summer League will see kicking backs. Let's say I'll do it my way and report back on how things went.

    Oh. One other thing... I wonder if BlackCat who started this topic is still with us? :sorry:
     
  3. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Obviously, in the absence of guidance from England Hockey or above you do your best.

    I'm at a tournament right now so I'll be asking around.
     
  4. BlackCat

    BlackCat FHF Regular Player

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    Diligent,

    Your comment about straying from the original question... it's been asked and answered, thank you.

    My real issue was I forgot about the briefing notes and once I did review them, my question was answered.

    To some degree, I see the kicking back rule as part of an effort to standardize between indoor and outdoor. This makes some sense, except to those people who don't play indoor and have no basis of comparison!

    I do have to admit I'm not thrilled about the field player "may" wear face protection bit. I'm fairly sure most club teams aren't going to have those little "Jason" PC mask kicking around. I understand the rule was put in place with Club hockey in mind but their is a lack of consideration about access to equpment. I guess we'll see these masks in appearing in equipment bags over time.
     
  5. aussieump

    aussieump FHF All Time Great
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    Most competitions have their own rules for things such as interchanges and sinbins etc. if they do not speciifcally cover the topic/rule then the FIH rules are to be observed. most associations make refernce to the affiliation of rules etc in the Articles of Incorporation.

    Otherwise commonsense must be applied.

    All interchanges , except GK-fully kitted, must be done within the 3-5 meters of the half line of the umpire designatedl. This way all teams and all comps get5 the same ruling applied

    Just my thoughts
     
  6. CardWaver

    CardWaver FHF Reserve Player

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    If you feel patricularly pedantic try this one:
    Next time a keeper does something stupid ( almost, by definition, a certainty lol) YC the keeper and award a PC, when the defending team then stop abusing you :angry: and try to sub on a new keeper tell them ( and i quote from the briefing)
    ".........Play should not be delayed while a goalkeeper not yet on the pitch changes into or puts on protective equipment"
    Therefore tell them to- "get on with it , i will allow one of your defenders to wear a mask!"
    When the chaos dies down, check to see if captains have read the briefing :eek:
    Is this a case of just too much of a disadvantage or should the defenders just castigate their keeper ???
     
  7. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    I'd say that's a bit harsh! ;) You might win friends and influence people by saying that's the rule but in this case, you won't mind waiting. On the other hand...

    BTW, welcome to the forum CardWaver. Go ahead and introduce yourself in the Member Introduction area so we can all get to know you a bit!
     
  8. CardWaver

    CardWaver FHF Reserve Player

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    Was merely emphasising that rules and / or briefing argument can lead to such outcomes
    But the point is , esp in lower level hockey where no sub GK on bench, would one allow time for a replacement to get kitted up ( Esp as he has to wait for binned keeper to remove it first ( presuming he hasn't lobbed it over the fence first!)
    The HRB must have tried really hard to come up with some many words with so little clarity :baffled:
     
  9. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    In a word: yes.
     
  10. David_Underdown

    David_Underdown FHF Regular Player

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    It is unfortunate that the briefing also says that a replacement keeper (for a suspension) must be a like for like replacement. I can see the point of not allowing the replacement to be more equipped than the keeper they are replacing, but to insist that they must have exactly the same level of protection could be a bit of a bind at those levels where keepers on the bench are unkown.
     
  11. CardWaver

    CardWaver FHF Reserve Player

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    And thid is at odds with the briefings direction not to delay the game- the gk normally has to do something pretty bad to get a YC so if he disadvantages the rest of his team he can hardly complain ( but i'm sure he still would :rolleyes:)
     
  12. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    I've said before and I will say it again, I believe the intention of this aspect of the briefing is that they're attempting to prevent the situation from occuring where a GKWOPH is suddenly "injured" upon the award of a PC and a team attempts to sub in their fully-kitted GK to defend the PC. There is no disadvantage to the attacking team if a less-protected player is the substitute. Since the briefing specifically lists this example in the briefing, I think I'm on the right track in saying that they did not intend to prohibit a substitution the other way around.
     
  13. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    I agree. As David says, the translation as the guidance filtered down to local umpires is most unfortunate.

    If a team proposes to bring on a kicking back for an injured GK, I might easily 'forget' this particular guidance, especially if the consensus is "... let's get on with the game". But I would insist that an injured shirt/helmet GK replaced with the same, or they defend the PC with 5 field players and one less beyond halfway.
     
  14. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    You can always point to the advantage rule.
     
  15. Ridgester

    Ridgester FHF Regular Player

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    so did we ever find out where a kicking back is allowed to substitute at and how? i think the purpose for substituting by the goal cage was to make it easier and faster for the goalies and the stopped time was for the changing of uniforms ( if only one kit present) or to prevent a goal scored unfairly for bad timing of the sub. so i say with a kicking back you sub just like the rest of field players. they want field player privileges then that's what they get.
     
  16. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    thekicking back has to wear a face mask if they want goalie like duties.

    a player in a mask cant exit their own 25.

    hence a kicking back change at point where goalie leaves would make sense.

    its where I would change them from. ( Im not an expert so dont take that as gospel)

    if its a regular field player then they can sub at 50!

    Id be interested to know what the experts here would do.
     
  17. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    With the benefit of experience in various domestic matches since this discussion, a player subbing on for a fully-kitted GK has been permitted to enter the pitch at the 50, while the fully-kitted GK has stepped off the end line while time is stopped (as I suggested
    here
    ). If that player has been substituted off the field, they have been permitted to exit at the 50 while their replacement either steps on at the same place, or time is stopped at the fully-kitted GK re-enters the pitch with time stopped again.

    The key, as I pointed out in the post I cited above, is that we don't want quick subs to happen back at the end line where it's far easier for the defending team to complete and can be done without notice by the opposing team.

    The principle of the rule is that we stop time for the GK because, first of all, GKs aren't allowed to participate in the play outside their 23. If they sub at the 50 while play is going on, by necessity they breach that rule. Stopping play ensures that GKs don't get trapped into violating this rule (and causing danger for anyone in their mad dash to or from their circle).

    Second, we think that if they can simply step off the end line to accomplish their substitution, it would very advantageous if they could do that during play. So we stop time to draw attention to the substitution itself.

    Those considerations don't exist with the "kicking back", as they can participate in the play outside the 23 without penalty (as long as they're not wearing their helmet).

    I think the logic is solid and has now been borne out by my experience. Anyone had something contrary?
     
  18. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    And here's the content of a guidance paper that was circulated to the umpires at the last Samsung Women's Champions Trophy (sorry about the caps but that's how it was sent to me and I'm not re-typing it all!):

     
  19. Ridgester

    Ridgester FHF Regular Player

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    that sounds reasonable. are these fih rules or just for that tournament?
     
  20. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    aside from the prohibition on stopping time for a gk to kit up, they are as the rule book

    you can hardly expect a world wide TV audience to watch in rapt attention at a GK' contortions while dressing. ( hilarious as it may be at times- especially when he forgets to put on his padded pants before pads and kickers :yes: )
     

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