Keeper - kicking back - field player Rule 10.1

Discussion in 'PS and Goalkeeping' started by BlackCat, May 10, 2007.

  1. Cascadia

    Cascadia FHF Legend

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    Yes, I made a point of using that one after the match where the one umpire wouldn't allow me more than four defenders back. He apologized after the fact and said he had made a slip-up. It was more or less friendly after the match, although I was pretty irate at the time. I really shouldn't have been as upset as I was because even with the disadvantage on that one PC, we were already winning 7-0 at that point so it's not like it was a game decider, but the umpiring in this match had been generally quite poor and this just pushed me over the edge a bit. I am normally quite composed as a player and coach when the umpiring is lack-luster, so this was fairly out of character for me.

    The first instance was club-level umpires, so I didn't expect too much. The second instance was an umpire on the way out of her regional (she's letting it expire) and she tends to umpire "her way" anyway. I don't think it's an FHC issue (I hope not, anyway), I think it was just personal misinterpretations that just happened to coincide. If it proves to be a problem in further matches with more highly rated umpires, I may consider it an issue, but I'm hoping these were more-or-less isolated.
     
  2. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Just more evdience that whatever system is being used to circulate rules changes and interpretations is failing... oh wait, that's right! There is no system!

    :(

    Back to your regularly-scheduled programming.
     
  3. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    Maybe, she is a bit like me, Cas, in the 'winding-down' years of an 'umpiring career' (if one can call it that!), and finding, as I have, that recent and frequent (or fairly so) rule-changes.... specifically the PS and 'no goalkeeper' (not to mention the 'changed-but-the-same' feet application ;) ) rules have just added to the umpires' mental work-load :eek:

    It wouldn't be so bad if the wording of such changes were not, apparently, so universally ambiguous :( )

    There was a time, until fairly recently when I felt confident that I knew the rules 'inside-out' and rarely needed to refer to the book...... nowadays, it's being an active member of hockey forums which provides help in keeping up-to-date.

    I may be reading it wrongly, but, from afar, it appears that the hockey authorities in Oz are making things even worse, by states' having their own 'versions' of the rules :eek:
     
  4. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Interesting. It makes me wonder why it is that the rule changes don't "bother" junior umpires in the same way. Maybe it's because we don't make the assumption that once we've learned the rules inside and out, we're done.
     
  5. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    No, keely, I think there comes a time when we are 'done' >:

    I have no doubt that, if my knees were up to it, I could work my way back up to umpiring at a quite good level, on a regular basis, and I'd feel as mentally sharp as I did when I was doing it (say, 10 years ago)..... if you are only physically able to umpire, say, women's 4th XI games, I think the 'hockey brain' slows-down accordingly.

    I have certainly never reached a point, in anything I've done, where I've felt "I have nothing more to learn" ;)

    Unfortunately, I have met many people who do have that attitude, both on and off the hockey field. ........
    [An ex-sailor once said to me, on discovering I was doing leadership training "After 36 years in the Navy you couldn't teach me anything about leadership!"
    I replied "I'm sure I couldn't teach you anything, but if you came with open mind, you just might learn something!"}]
     
  6. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    They have?

    I still haven't the briefing.I'm told it exists, I'm trying to get it.
    5 weeks into the season.
    If it is on the Hockey Victoria site it is well hidden.


    And I agree with Justin. It is getting to be hard work keeping up with the rules,- as well as the players!- and more especially the " interpretations'" which appear to conflict with the words.

    refer the FIH site, Rules/ FAQ 9:
    Extract
    They don't? :eek: :p
     
  7. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Yeah, deegum, you've made this point before. Several times before.
     
  8. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    "Constant dripping wears away a stone" lol
     
  9. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    ...and is punishable under the Geneva Convention as an unusual and degrading treatment when used to extract information from prisoners...!
     
  10. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Are we not straying rather from the original question?
    Rule 4.3 says colour (not helmet) is the key to distinguishing a GK. So to answer the questions in a slightly different order:

    How are we to distinguish when this player is a keeper and isn't? Does helmet = GK and conversely does no helmet = field player? Different colour shirt = GK, same colour as field players = field player (helmet not permitted).
    So if a defender has removed her helmet to play beyond the 23 m and then finds herself defending in her circle (no PC, just free play), having not put her helmet back on, can she play the ball with her body? Yes. The different colour makes her a 'goalkeeper' for Rule 10.
    A PC is called, she is forced to put on the helmet - does this mean she suddenly assumes GK priviledges? The different colour already gives her GK privileges, and indeed it is this that forces her to put on the helmet for the PC.
    What happens if no equipment shows up? If there is no helmet to wear for PC/PS then no one can be GK so all must be field players in the same colours.

    So the kicking back, or option b GK, or player-of-a-different-colour, or whatever is free to put the helmet on or off anytime - on the fly, as you say - except that it must be on for PC and PS, and off outside their 23.
    Hope that's more clear and less annoying now. :)

    What I find unclear is the correct procedure for substitutions that change between kicking back and field player or full kit GK. Rule 2.3 says f field players must enter and leave at halfway, and h time is stopped to sub full GK. But for g GK may sub near their goal, is the kicking back a GK or field player?

    Clearly the player should leave at the same place their substitute is coming on - that makes life easier. Maybe it should be halfway for kicking back changing with field player or another kicking back, with the helmet left conveniently beside their goal. And maybe kicking back can swap with full GK near their goal, but with no need to stop time.

    On recent form I've probably got that wrong somehow... :sorry: Another fine learning experience!
     
  11. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    The fact that there is so much confusion discussion among... in some cases.... experienced umpires, suggests to me that it is a real buggers muddle which just increases the likelihood of confusion and frustration on the pitch.

    Is the HRB under-employed?
    IMO, they'd spend their time much more productively in clarifying the rules as we had 'em a couple of years ago, rather than introducing 'new variations' (eg the PS rule, the no-keeper option, and the re-written but unchanged feet rule).

    As I've said elsewhere, I just don't believe that your average 'amateur' umpire has any real idea of how all these should be applied :(
     
  12. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    They do if they are diligent. ;)
     
  13. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    Some are, many are not.
     
  14. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    Any points on this forum which HAVEN'T been made several times before? :yes:

    There is a smilie in there especially for you keely, :inlove:
    OH and I edited my post to make it more succinct.

    And red said :
    Well there are one or two instances ( currently in securely closed cans of worms :p )
    where it appears there is going to be no other way to get an unambiguous ruling from the FIH
    "Rendition" by the CIA perhaps? :baffled:
     
  15. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    The "kicking back" is "a goalkeeper with goalkeeping privileges wearing only protective headgear and a different colour shirt" and not a field player, so in my view they are permitted to sub at the endline near their goal. I believe a field player will step on the pitch at the centre line when subbing for a GK who steps off the endline near their goal.

    I don't think the "where" is as important as the "how", which you bring up here:

    If there is a GK with full equipment involved, time must be stopped (2.3(h)). I believe this will prevent abuse by teams attempting to do "quick swaps" when the ball is moving into their defensive end - imagine the abuse of the rolling subs in that situation.
     
  16. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Thanks Keely, but that brings us back to 'where'. I imagine yet more opportunity for abuse, or let's say error, when the 'quick swap' brings a substitute onto the pitch 60m from where their team-mate should be leaving.

    How about this?
    If a full kit GK is involved, time is stopped, and then either player enters/leaves near halfway/goal as they want - for 2.3g the player-of-a-different-colour is a GK.
    If a full kit GK is not involved, they must roll subs at halfway (leaving helmet by their goal) - for 2.3g the POADC leaves their 23 and so field player rules apply.
     
  17. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Creative solution but I don't believe it follows from the rules. A GK is permitted to sub by their goal, whether they have a full kit or not.
     
  18. David_Underdown

    David_Underdown FHF Regular Player

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    Keely, it may not be clear from the rules but the briefing says:

    although what is normal for GKs is still somewhat arguable I suppose.
     
  19. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    David, does the briefing say anything about where the kicking-back goes on/off when a field player comes off/on?

    My problem is the 'Worm Hole' ploy; kicking back steps off by their goal and field player appears on halfway.
    Inventive tactic! :eek: But fair? :eek:
     
  20. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Diligent

    As the 'normal' substitution rules pertain to 'kicking-backs', they can only be subbed on or off in the same place as all other subs. Where I umpire this is always within 5m of the half-way line, but I'm pretty sure that's in the league regs rather than the rules of hockey. So the substitution of a kicking back would have to be in line with whatever regs are in force for the game in question. I doubt there are many regs that allow a player to step off the pitch wherever s/he likes and for a replacement to come on from anywhere around the pitch...
     

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