Is a high save receiving an aerial?

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions' started by CookieDotJar, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. CookieDotJar

    CookieDotJar FHF Newbie

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    I was playing as goalkeeper in a game recently, whilst defending a PC drag flick I saved the ball with my left hand (it was just above my shoulder height). The ball came down (45 degree angle downwards at least) and forwards off my pad and hit the injector who was running in for a rebound on his upper leg, his run was such that it would have been hard for him to avoid the ball, but also such that it was hard for me to direct the ball elsewhere with my save. The umpire gave a second PC as I had played the ball into an attackers body (above the knee) and it got me wondering whether that was the correct decision. I have always been coached that as a keeper if I play the ball towards the ground then I'm not creating danger with my control. It also followed that as an umpire myself I began to wonder if because the ball was above my shoulder height I should have been given 5 metres of space in which to control the ball and bring it to ground as if receiving an aerial? What are everyone's thoughts on this?
     
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  2. Paul Watts

    Paul Watts FHF All Time Great

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    It's not an aerial, so you don't get 5m. save has to be safe, so PC sounds like the right decision.
     
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  3. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    Why is it not an aerial?

    Where in the rule book is a shot at goal which does not reach the goal get special dispensation in this regard?

    *virtue signalling alert*
    I am not stating an opinion one way or another but it is an interesting topic and it would be interesting to see how the rules deal with it. I am on a train and unable to access a copy
    */virtue signalling
     
  4. CookieDotJar

    CookieDotJar FHF Newbie

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    Perhaps I should clarify, the reason I'm confused is pertaining to rule 9.10 - "Players must not approach within 5 metres of an opponent receiving a falling raised ball until it has been received, controlled and is on the ground." As the drag flick was looping it has begun to fall but only by a little. I don't understand how this rule does not apply here and yet would apply outside the circle. Is this specific to shots on goal and if so why?
     
  5. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    Two questions raised.

    1 aerial rule
    I can't recall having seen specific guidance on it; but I suggest most goalkeepers will very quickly get happy if you consider the other side of the same coin - do you want to have to give an attacker in front of your goal 5m to receive a falling raised ball? So as with many questions (like where the goal is) I'm satisfied without a hunt for specific guidance.

    2 danger
    Whilst playing the ball towards the ground is more likely to avoid danger, that's not the same as saying you have a safe harbour in the rules. I've happily kicked it over the top of players' heads before without causing danger, conversely if I palmed it into a player's face, I know I've fouled. But if you're going to drill something in training, you'd likely start with going down before you look at exceptions like e.g. tipping over the bar, etc.

    Hope that helps, proper umpire geeks may be able to give you something more esoteric.
     
  6. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    Playing the ball towards the ground and playing the ball in a controlled way and playing the ball in a safe way are three totally independent things.

    Doing any of them says nothing about whether you've done the other two. The fact that it was hard to direct the ball anywhere else says you did not have control, and the fact it hit a player's body says you did not play it safely.

    No.
     
  7. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    If the attacker is the clear initial receiver, this is already true.

    The number of subsequent PCs given purely for this reason, especially at middle levels where they're good enough to raise shots and make saves, but not quite control height and direction every time, is notable.
     
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  8. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    Hey there, I don't understand what you are saying by already true. If an attacker is 2m in front of the goal and the clear receiver, there is no way common sense has the goalie moving 3m behind the goal (or getting out of it). In the same way it would not be common sense for attackers not to be allowed within 5m of a goalkeeper receiving a ball in the air.

    Your second para doesn't appear to relate to the one of mine quoted (but agrees with the one removed).
     
  9. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    @CookieDotJar, was the ball actually falling when you saved it? It would be a very unusual drag flick that was falling by the time it reached the GK... You only get 5m of space when receiving a falling, raised ball.
     
  10. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    A fair point but now we are getting into a possible pedant's paradise of whether the ball was arcing downward or not and let's face it we don't want to go there.
     
  11. CookieDotJar

    CookieDotJar FHF Newbie

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    I can't remember for certain, but I believe that the ball had passed the apex of its flight, it wasn't a particularly hard or fast drag flick, what would be the correct call in each case (falling or not)?
     
  12. Gilly

    Gilly FHF Legend

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    Quite right @Krebsy - we all know that what goes up, must come down, so it will, at some point in space-time, become a "falling raised ball" and the rule is silent on the precise timing required for the required protection in three-dimensional space to be applied. [/TIC]
     
  13. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    This must be the only time I've raised an eyebrow at an umpiring comment from @redumpire - who I know will know more about this than I.

    Taking as said and read we aren't going to talk physics, I will say I have fairly regularly been in a position close to goal (within 5m or less) where there has been a non-dangerous falling ball (albeit not from a drag flick).

    The attacker will, if skill permits, play that towards goal. The goalie will stand in a position that allows them to make a save. That can be done safely and with both players within 5 (or even 1) metre of each other. If they don't get into a melee causing danger, it wouldn't enter my head to think any of us had to get 5. I wouldn't think that even if the attacker was the obvious receiver - I wouldn't smash through him to get the ball, but I'm certainly not getting out the goal.
     
  14. SPetitt

    SPetitt FHF All Time Great

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    <takes a comfortable chair to watch the action> :rolleyes:
     
  15. Stephen65

    Stephen65 FHF Legend

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    In my experience:

    - 100% of the time I make a PC save (no matter how high or low the ball and whatever its trajectory) and its gone directly off me to strike a forward on the body above the shinguard its been awarded as another PC

    - if a high ball is dropping in the D and I can play it by batting it away with my hands before it reaches a forward I do and I do not recall ever being told I should have either stood there (or worse backed away) so that the forward has 5 meters and a free opportunity to bring it to ground
    and shoot.
     
  16. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I obviously didn't express myself clearly enough, as we're absolutely on the same page here.

    I just couldn't - and still can't - envisage a situation where a drag flick at a PC would be considered a falling raised ball as it wouldn't be falling by the time it reached the goal.

    In terms of general play, any player anywhere on the pitch, is entitled to their 5m of space in which to receive a falling raised ball if they are the initial receiver in the eyes of the umpire. That applies to GKs, as well as to forwards in the D.
     
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  17. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    They're the clear receiver. Every opponent backs off. Otherwise they get penalised. Common sense and the rules, nothing else.

    No sensible keeper moves, so either the advantage is a good trap and shot or it's a PS and card.

    The goalkeeper gets the same treatment, whether they're the receiver or the opponent. No retreat, FHD and probably a card is an option too.
     
  18. Gilly

    Gilly FHF Legend

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    Be careful with that line of thought @Nij. For me, advantage can override a team penalty (the PS in your example) but should never be used as an excuse not to give a personal penalty (the card).

    If an action is worthy of a personal penalty you should always go back and award it once play suitably breaks down following your (hopefully good) advantage decision.
     
  19. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    The problem with this line of thought is the aerial rule relies on the ball being brought down. You probably wouldn't do that in front of goal, you'd deflect it in.

    So if this was true, the goalie has to stand back and watch them put it in the goal?

    Sorry that has to be wrong.

    I get that you wouldn't prevent them from playing it. But not being allowed to save it? Come on. Suggesting common sense and the rules nothing else? No. Might be rules silence but no way you can argue that's common sense. Even the attacker wouldn't think they'd get a foul for the goalie being on the goal line.
     
  20. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    An attacker who plays the ball away is no longer the receiver of an aerial. The ball being played is not an aerial at all, and the rule is irrelevant by the time the goalkeeper plays it.

    Common sense means not thinking about things when they ate completely separate from the topic.
     

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