Handling Intentional Offences in Other Umpires 23m areas

Discussion in 'Game Management & Communication' started by Ballingdon, Aug 22, 2008.

  1. Ballingdon

    Ballingdon FHF Top Player

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    In the now famous incident at the Olympics , Tindall (GB) brought down, an attacking NED player inside the 23 m area on his left wing and conceded a PC (and a YC).

    It made me question how I handle , as support umpire, an intentional offence by a defender in the 5m strip of my control, if this is not seen by the lead umpire on the far side. I shouldn't blow a PC directly, I can give FHA (and card if necessary). But I need to draw attention of the umpire for him to award the PC. Blow first and then consult with umpire before awarding a FHD (if he doesn't want to award a PC_

    How do others handle this ? (Obviously any solution needs to be agreed in the pre-match chat)
     
  2. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Standard practice in our part of the world is: for a bad/intentional foul on the far right of the defence, the umpire (whose 23 it isn't) gives a #3 "that is really awful" blast on the whistle. If his partner (whose circle it is) is awake, they blow and signal the PC.

    If a card is appropriate, then the umpire who first saw it stops time and administers the personal penalty.

    Yes it's a good idea to confirm the procedure during the pre-match chat.
     
  3. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

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    Like that :yes:
     
  4. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    Yes, it's fun explaining to a newbie ump how you will 'invite' them to convert your FHA into a PC :)
    (Then hope they don't get over-zealous!)
     
  5. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    If the pre-match chat lets you down, given that you're going to give a yellow card, you get the opportunity to discuss it with the umpire who needs to call the corner because you will be stopping time. Take your time with these situations, you can have a little meeting with your colleague and simply ask, "So, what do you think you should do with the free hit on the intentional foul I just penalized?" ;)
     
  6. nerd_is_the_word

    nerd_is_the_word FHF All Time Great

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    is it just me or would anybody else hold back on the whistle for a second, see if you can get the other umpires attention (the fact that they couldnt see means that they probably should be looking for you anyway) and try to signal a PC?

    if that doesnt work though i would go with you guys
     
  7. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    No...don't 'try to signal a PC'...if the players pick it up and your colleague doesn't take it up, you are in deep do-do!

    As keely says, you can discuss it when carding the miscreant....... as you think it's worthy of a PC, it should 'merit' some sort of personal penalty (although at the lower levels, the PC is often regarded, by many umpires, as sufficient penalty).
     
  8. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    I agree with justin about not signaling for a PC. :)

    Just as an aside, there are times when the ugpraded PC is enough and an implied green card anyway.
     
  9. Wikileats

    Wikileats FHF Top Player

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    Ok, i had to bring this up again.

    I was playing in a BUCS (formerly BUSA) league match tonight against Manchester Uni. A defender from my team made a pretty horrible effort at a tackle in our 23m area, which i do believe was worthy of a PC. I was really shocked when a PC was awarded however, because it came from the wrong umpire.

    I thought that as an umpire you were only allowed to blow a PC in the area of your control?
     
  10. dodgeyumpires

    dodgeyumpires FHF Regular Player

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    Each umpire is in charge of his/her circle. So effectively, only the one umpire should be blowing in the circle. That is stated in the rulebook. It is also common courtesy

    EG - The engaged umpire (persons whose circle it is) may be unsigthed or just plain missed something - This isnt one of those times when you blow in the other umpires circle! Help them out with a signal if they look, but otherwise... tough.


    BUT!!! Sometimes it is a necessity! (for those not at an interantional level)
    If I were umpiring with someone who was a relatively new umpire and one of these 'horrible efforts' at a tackle was made, I would wait for the umpire to blow a P.C. If nothing happened or the other umpire was unsure/not confident enough to blow big loud whistle I would jump in there and help him/her out. No worries about that one. In fact, when I was new and missed those ones I was oh so grateful to my co-umpire for jumping in and helping me out.
    Not quite sure what a league game is... probly top level hockey, so this probly wasnt the case. Only other thing is perhaps the umpire wasnt sure the other umpire was going to blow it... but again, not the right thing to do.

    So, pretty much you are right, it shouldnt happen. Perhaps this league umpire was a bit over eager! But if it is to the detriment of the game and the players are missing out/getting away with cheating, why do we not help out?
     
  11. aussieump

    aussieump FHF All Time Great
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    The better option would have been the NCU stop the game and had a quick conversation with the EU and allowed them to make the call after this discussion, looks better

    Overruling generally does not assist in the development of team work but by using the stoppage for a quick chat the correct call can be made by the correct umpire.
     
  12. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    At the risk of going around in circles...

    Andyface raised the on-topic issue of a bad foul in the 23m area outside the circle. Back in August we agreed that the best way to handle it was:
    That said, I agree with Dodgeyumpires and Aussieump about respecting the areas of control and not overruling colleagues. In their own circle, if they insist on hanging themselves you must let them; but the moment they look across, then you can signal what you saw, for them to give the decision. If they are still uncertain, then it always looks better when it is the engaged umpire who stops time to review a decision.

    This is another item to agree before the match starts.
     
  13. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    In the NPUA there is a specific agreement that you can blow in your colleagues D and awarda PC ( I suppose a PS aswell), I must admit to not having done so, and I have found no real need to so far (outdoor). I would love to see the look on Keelys face as I give a PS in her D.... surely a mastercard moment!!! :yes:
     
  14. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Didn't you promise to do so in that BUCS game we were on recently... and failed miserably to even get your own PS decisions correct? Something like that. ;)
     
  15. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    Touche... and stick block my a*se!!
     
  16. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Is there CH?!?! Are you sure? I thought this was a trial that we abandoned a couple of seasons ago...
     
  17. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    Didn't realsie that Red. Lucky I haven't done it then isn't it!! Are you sure? Pesonally, I see no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to. I know its not custom and practice and would prob happen once every blue moon... but to stay you can't, I feel is a bit much.
     
  18. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I'm reasonably sure. Particularly as in every pre-match chat I've had this season we've agreed that the supporting umpire can blow defensive free hits that are just inside in his colleague's circle but that 'big' decisions should be left to the 'active' umpire to blow. Perhaps one of us (i.e. you!!) should seek clarity!

    One thing's for sure, you better make sure you include it in your pre-match chat from now on (especially for your game on 1 March!) as I'm confident that quite a few of us would be surprised if you were to start giving PCs in our Ds!
     
  19. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    Having consulted the font of all knowledge that is Tex, I am led to believe that the trial that was only ever for the National League in England has now ended but that there has been no communication to say so! Therefore you can rest easy Red that I shall not be awarding a PC in your D (unless advice is sought) and if i can see anything from the half way line I'll let you know.. lol
     
  20. Bertybob

    Bertybob FHF Top Player

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    One big bl**dy long blast on the whistle.......

    If my colleague is not switched on to award it, then stop time, card the player and have a chat.
     

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