GK playing the ball above shoulder height

Discussion in 'PS and Goalkeeping' started by GregButcher, Feb 13, 2008.

  1. GregButcher

    GregButcher FHF Newbie

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    Apologies if this has been dealt with in another thread - I've looked but can't find anything...

    I'm coming at this question from the point of view of being a keeper as well as an umpire, so I want to know if it's OK for me to do it in a match in future and what I should do if I see anyone else do it.

    I was umpiring a game recently where the striker took a shot and lifted the ball hard to the keeper's left at about normal elbow height. The keeper just got his left hand protector to the ball and deflected it just enough to send the ball pretty much straight up into the air.

    He waited for it to drop to the floor before trying to kick it away under pressure from the original striker. The kick was stopped by another player from the attacking team who scored.

    If it had been me in goal, I like to think I would probably have reacted by trying to bat the ball away from danger with my left hand while the ball was still above shoulder height (meaning that the attackers would be prevented from playing the ball by rule 9.7 - "Players must not play the ball with any part of the stick when the ball is above shoulder height except that defenders are permitted to use the stick to stop or deflect a shot at goal at any height").

    I've looked through the rules and the only prohibition I can find on playing the ball above shoulder height is that you can't play it with a stick. Would it be ok to play it with a left hand?

    Assume that I can knock the ball away far enough so that it travels through the air and lands without causing danger to any other player - it would obviously be a PC if I nearly hit anyone with the ball...!

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. philthy

    philthy FHF All Time Great

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    of course the keeper can play it above shoulder height with their hand.

    and due to last year's rule changes it can be "batted" away - so long as this is done safely and as part of a goal saving action (keely or someone will be able to quote the exact ruling)

    i personally would rather drop a high ball to my feet and kick clear - when you bat it you lose control of it. you risk giving away a PC if it's dangerous, and it's much harder to control where it goes, so i'd rather have it at my feet so i can direct the clearance.
     
  3. Cascadia

    Cascadia FHF Legend

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    Sounds all good, subject to danger - in short, I agree with philthy. In the case of the ball going straight up in the air and then coming straight back down (which I gather, from what you described, is what happened here), I'd be inclined to call a PC early because of the potential for this to lead to dangerous play (ie: an attacker or defender not being so keen on giving the keeper to time and space to control it on its descent).
     
  4. NicfromSweden

    NicfromSweden FHF All Time Great
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    just to give this a twist if it was indoor you wouldnt be allowed to since you have to let the ball bounce on the floor untill it stop bouncing
    but what if the deflection was going for the goal would you be allowed to save the ball in the air a second time?
     
  5. Magpie

    Magpie Administrator
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    I agree with Cascadia in that it would have been better for the ump to get in early and blow a PC. The danger was not from the shot but from the deflection from the GK, the GK probably should have "deflected" the ball over the side line for a long by simply standing under the ball hand held high.
     
  6. UmpireHockey.com

    UmpireHockey.com FHF All Time Great

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    Indoor you can stop or deflect a ball that is in the air from going into the goal, but not PLAY it while it is in the air.

    Had virtually the same thing happen in an indoor game last week -- goalkeeper's vertical save was dropping and they played the ball forward with their hand as it was dropping. Okay outside, not in indoor hockey.

    Of course, naturally, I completely messed it up having just prepared for an outdoor tournament. :(

    Cheers...Cris
     
  7. g9

    g9 FHF Legend

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    yeah, found out the indoor/outdoor difference on that a couple of weeks ago! I saved the aerial shot and drew my foot back to clear the falling ball, only to get a PC called for playing the ball forward while it was falling. After the game, I noted to the umpire that I had not contacted the ball, just drawn my foot back preparing for the kick, so I thought his call was technically premature even if he and I both knew what I intended to do! We differed further when he said it should have been a stroke (the ump for the circle overruled him and called PC).
     
  8. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    Just a thought....isn't the keeper actually receiving a 'falling raised ball' and therefore entitled to 5m to get on the ground and controlled?
    (Assuming that there was no opponent within 5m when he raised it ;) ) ???

    And wouldn't you apply this to any player(anywhere 5m+ clear of opponents) who accidentally raises the ball vertically and 'receives' it himself?

    An opponent who attempts to 'encroach' would then be penalised?
     
  9. johnreiss

    johnreiss FHF Top Player

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    Please correct me if I'm wrong but as I undestand it the rules are :-

    Outdoor: Keeper may play the ball with any part of his equipment as part of preventing a goal subject to danger or leading to danger. So there has to be a forward within playing distance (presumably there will be 99.99% of the time. I cannot imagine no attacking forward within playing distance but I suppose it is possible! s. Ffor playing the ball with the stick above the shoulder , any player may STOP OR DEFLECT A GOALBOUND SHOT ie one that is is going in . With the 'new' guidance, the stick does not have to be stationary for it to be classed as a hit. Only if the ball is clearly HIT should a PS be given. if the raised stick played a ball that is going wide it should be a PC.

    I think that the rules are the same in indoor except that noone can hit the ball. Normally, no player can player the ball when its in the air (you have to let it drop) .

    Obviously all of this is subject to danger or leading to danger which should also be blown against the person who caused it (either the guy who lifted it , the guy who approached within playing distance )
     
  10. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    As this was apparently a pretty hard hit.....resulting in its going so high..... I'd have thought it quite possible/likely that it was made from more than 5m, and also that other attackers might not have been closer than the striker.
    I didn't read anything in the OP which suggested otherwise.

    (I was/am not really thinking about indoor, as my experience of that game is so limited)
     
  11. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    I don't apply the 5m rule to incidents where a player puts the ball high off a mistrap or mis-save. I don't believe it's the intention of the rule to allow players to make mistakes and be afforded this protection - it's for receiving passes, which is a skill play.

    That isn't to say that the GK would be penalized automatically for deflecting a ball high on a save. It is possible that the ball can be played safely by either team and for an attacker to be the one to cause danger. It's less likely than penalizing the GK for creating the danger but definitely possible.
     
  12. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    Thanks for clarifying your view in the first para, keely...that was exactly what I wanted...fwiw(not much!), I agree :)
     
  13. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    That's a relief; I wasn't looking forward to that debate to be honest. :sorry:

    Some days I'm just a little tired and like a nice round of "yeah! That's what I think!"
     
  14. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    BUT there is a falling raised ball. raised by the keeper. Presumably the nearest forward is therefore entitled to " HIS" 5m. :eek:
    (I'm not tired, I'm exhausted :) )
     
  15. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    But that player created the dangerous situation out of mistrap/mis-save. Common sense prevails.
     
  16. Gilly

    Gilly FHF Legend

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    I think Deegum is trying to tease you Keely - I read his post as meaning the ball (now falling) was raised by the defence (keeper), therefore, if two opponents (keeper + any forward) are in the landing zone then the team that raised the ball (keeper) must give 5 metres to their opponent to bring the ball down.

    I read it as very firmly TIC!
     
  17. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    Yeah, you can just see any keeper 'retreating' to 5m, to give possession to an attacker, can't you ? ;) :eek:
    Even if,theoretically, he should.

    So you should , perhaps, goive a PC while the ball is 'up there', secure in the knowledge that the keeper has done, or will do, something illegal ? :rolleyes:
     
  18. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    ME? Tease Keely? ( insert saintly innocence smiley here)

    I'm not so brave. ( insert terrified smiley)
     

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