GK Deliberately Covering the Ball with Glove

Discussion in 'PS and Goalkeeping' started by Ballingdon, Mar 8, 2008.

  1. Ballingdon

    Ballingdon FHF Top Player

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    Can I drag this topic into the Umpiring Forum?

    http://www.fieldhockeyforum.com/index.php?topic=4160.0

    In the GB vs India match, GK deliberately covers the ball with glove in front of goal (ice hockey style) and then pulls ball under his body. I say PS - Umpire in Chile says PC.
     
  2. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Given that many forum members haven't had the opportunity to see the clip you refer to, it's going to be impossible to for us to comment. Besides, what are you looking for, an indictment of his decision, or validation that you would have made a better decision were you in his place?

    Just curious.
     
  3. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    gee, Keely, the lad asked a question, he didn't suggest lynching the ump. :eek:

    It is perfectly possible for us to comment in general terms on a gk covering the ball with his LHP
    So I'll comment. NOT on the particular GB match



    Assumption : the " playing " face of the LHP is generally flat or nearly so.
    a hockey ball ( round figures - very appropriate :) ) is 70mm/3" dia, ie stands that high off the ground
    A "normal" hockey stick laid on the ground stands about max 40 mm /1 1/2"off the ground at the head.

    if the gk places his LHP flat on top of the ball there is no obstruction- there is 70mm/3" high clear access to the ball all round . the attacker can easily get stick on ball - he has to get itdown flat and fit the stick under the LHP - without interfering with it first of course.

    If the LHP is tilted then there is less access from some directions and more from others.
    If the attacker is in a position to tackle then the goalie commits an offence if he moves ( tilts)the LHP to block approach- equivalent to a stick block
    but he can like a field player draw it away from the direction of the tackler- spin turn like a field player and the field player is obliged to get where he can get a touch on the ball.

    If the keeper deliberately draws the ball under his body and lies on it.... generally PS
     
  4. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Right, not having seen the incident, I would say that, despite all deegum's fancy mesurements, a GK covering the ball with his hand is obstruction and a deliberate offence denying an attacker possession of the ball in the circle. It would, therefore, normally be a penalty stroke. If he drags the ball back under hs body he is simply making a bad situation worse! However, I cannot comment on the specific incident as I haven't seen it.
     
  5. Snoody

    Snoody FHF All Time Great

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    I did see the TV coverage last night and at the time my immediate thoughts were: "How the heck did the GK get away with only a PC? Lucky boy..."
    The GK had already made a sliding block save when the ball scooted out behind (goal-side) of him. While lying down, 6 yards or so from goal, he quickly turned, reached back with his LHP, covered the ball, and then rolled / moved it under his chest. From memory, there were a defender and a forward in close proximity, with sticks reaching in and bodies everywhere. Admittedly the GK did a great job of trying to hide the fact that it was deliberate, and the ump may have been partially unsighted, but IMHO (and as a cheating, conniving GK myself), it was a very calculated act.

    With the benefit of TV replay, the ump may have reconsidered his decision. But who gets that luxury during the game, eh...?

    Cheers,
    Snoody
     
  6. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    No lynching requested. It's just that there was a nice long thread with lots of comments in general terms regarding a GK covering the ball with his LHP - in fact Ballingdom linked to it in his OP. He commented on this particular incident in that thread, and then started a new one as I guess he wanted to specifically address it. So I was asking why. That's all.
     
  7. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    no red. the ball is able to be legally played by any other player.
    Where's the obstruction?

    Players obstruct if they :

    – shield the ball from a legitimate tackle with their stick or any part of their body.

    lets not be picky about LHP v. stick.
    you can have your stick between a tackler and the ball: legal
    you can have your lhp between a tackler and the ball.: legal
    you can have your stick on top of the ball : legal
    you can have your LHP on top of the ball.: legal

    What isn't legal is to move the stick or lhp into the path of a legitimate tackle.
     
  8. braxer001

    braxer001 FHF Legend

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    Or keep it there without doing something with the ball... :rolleyes: At least that is how it is interpreted in my area :)
    Which means there is an obstruction because no goalie would first 'block' the ball, and then - with attackers all around and lying flat on the belly - try to move the ball, since there is too big of a risk that the ball would become completely freed up in front of the open goal mouth...
     
  9. nerd_is_the_word

    nerd_is_the_word FHF All Time Great

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    but deegum the LHP and stick are significantly different. the LHP will genuinely cover the ball where as (according to your measurements) a stick would not. i think in this case it actually makes a rather large difference. Also i think the fact that its intentional makes it easier to call it obstruction.

    also i think the situation you guys are discussing is rather theoretical as i cant see a goalie doing this unless he has something in mind to do with the ball, and these days the keeper would be better off sweeping the ball away with his glove than keeping it under his glove.
     
  10. Gilly

    Gilly FHF Legend

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    Well guys, I have reviewed the incident in real time with sound and in slo-mo (without unfortunately) and from what I can make out there are two reasons it wasn't a stroke.

    1) The GK did play the ball with his LHP, stopping its path towards goal (so legitimately preventing a goal scoring situation), started to drag the ball back towards himself whilst lying on the floor but then removed his LHP as the nearest player, a defender cleared the ball (straight back into the prone GK's chest). So, messy and probably would need tidying up with a PC but no obstruction as no forward attempted to play the ball - the only one in playing distance was appealing for an offence they thought they had seen prior to this.

    2) "stopping its path towards the goal" which it was on becasue he had inadvertently played the ball with the back of stick whilst 'searching' for the ball after the initial save - which was why the attacker was waving his hand in the air and why whistle went (before the LHP incident) as far as I can make out from the 'noisy' soundtrack.

    Certainly, this was what Spikey was explaining to the GK as the corner set up, judging by the actions used.
     
  11. Snoody

    Snoody FHF All Time Great

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    Thanks for the explanation, Gilly.

    Admittedly my recollection of the incident was a little hazy. I (mis)remembered the GK pulling the ball under his own chest, rather than it being mis-hit there; and I hadn't spotted the 'back-stick' offence in real time, given the less than sparkling TV pictures.

    Who'd be an umpire, eh?

    Cheers,
    Snoody
     
  12. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    Well, if it was Spikey, it was probably correct, eh? (no irony/sarcasm intended) :)
     
  13. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    There is no obligation on any player with the ball in general play to move himself or ball.

    "Come and get it if you can"

    From 9.12 A player with the ball is permitted to move off with it in any direction except bodily into an opponent. ( but he doesn't have to.... )

    Why does obstruction occur because " no goalie would"? ;)

    And yes a goalie might- waiting for a defender to get nicely into position.

    NITW
    "So What?"
    No rudeness intended, ;)
    Just a short way of putting my point.
    Both the stick and the LHP leave the ball playable by a player in position.
     
  14. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    I think the significant difference between 'stick on ball'' and 'LHP on ball' is the size(width) of the LHP, which effectively makes the ball unplayable, except to a 'shave' tackle.

    I personally would penalise a 'keeper who kept his LHP on top of the ball, for more than a 'moment', when an attacker was withing playing distance and appeared to be attempting to play the ball. The offence?...shielding, IMO.
     
  15. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    We can ask him once he's finished with the final, if you like. He's confirmed that he and John are going to be umpiring - I can't wait to watch the game on BBC! :)
     
  16. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I was just about to say that K - I just texted him to wish him luck and told him he was on the BBC! I told him to make sure his make-up is fixed properly and asked him to give us a wave...! He said he would.
     
  17. dave711

    dave711 FHF Regular Player

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    Surely he is playing the ball? i do apologise for entering umpires corner, must've got lost on the way to goalies zone
     
  18. UmpireHockey.com

    UmpireHockey.com FHF All Time Great

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    In an umpiring course, those words might well be given as the reason one calls a penalty stroke, as opposed to a penalty corner for a goalkeeper who happens to cover the ball momentarily as part of a goal saving action. I use a video in my course highlighting a goalkeeper who is actively going after "the cover", as opposed to the accidental, momentary cover that happens while making a legitimate play of the ball, to highlight how the former is a penalty stroke while the other is, more often than not, a penalty corner.

    It is so fundamental that, given the level of play and the umpires involved, I suspect (and I didn't see the clip) that if a penalty corner was given instead of a penalty stroke it was not likely a misapplication of the rules but simply a different decision for reasons present during the play, in the view of the umpire.

    In my experience, circumstances like this (ball beneath GK), the more typical "didn't he get that wrong?" discussion is about calls where what should have been called was a penalty corner INSTEAD of the penalty stroke --- not the other way around.

    IMHIWNTO...Cris

    (In My Humble I Was Not There Opinion)
     
  19. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    I'd STILL like to know what rule the GK has breached.

    The ball CAN be played EVEN IN THE WORST CASE- the ball dead centre of a dead horizontal LHP-it can be played from most directions.
    In most cases with the LHP off horizontal, the ball is as easy to get to as one held by a stick

    If the ball is in the hook of the stick it is pretty hard to get to!
    So what is the obstruction?
    If the goalie stays still the attacker simply hooks it from under the pad.
    If he alters the angle/ orientation of the pad he is likely to obstruct, just as a field player is when he moves his stick to block a tackle.
     
  20. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I think it comes down to interpretation of the word "cover" deegum. I (and others) assume that means that the GK has put his gauntlet on the ball preventing others playing it; you (alone, it would appear) seem to think it means that he is holding his gauntlet over the ball.
     

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