FIH trial of 2-minute green card suspension

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by alex.miles, Mar 1, 2010.

?
  1. "Nothing" (current rules)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. 2 minute suspension; team plays short (10/5)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. 2 minute suspension; full team plays (11/6)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. alex.miles

    alex.miles FHF Star Player

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2009
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    91
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    See here for the trial rule.

    I have played with this rules in a junior indoor league and I didn't like it. I like warning all the players with the green, and then have them know that any foul like that they'll be off for two mins or more. Plus, since a yellow card is two mins short-handed, in indoor it seems rather stupid to have the green just be the minimum requirement for the yellow.

    Anyway, I haven't umpired for long and I'm just wondering what you people think.

    EDIT: I know the FIH rule is for outdoors only. The indoor league's organisers decided to put it in to our tech regs and they liked it.
     
  2. Rutter

    Rutter FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    979
    Likes Received:
    6
    We have a system that works very well. Two minute suspensions are frankly a waste of everyones time. We have a system that allows umpires to warn players of their behaviour, then remove them from the pitch if that doesn't work.
     
  3. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    917
    Likes Received:
    1
    I have been using this at a few of our high level games and I can see where they are going with it....but in a real sense, Its unlikely to effect the game as the field is so big that 2 minutes is easy to shutdown.

    If we use no warning system for the players, then the fans also get confused...its akin to going straight to a YC now for an offence that you want to say...STOP IT...and still warn the whole team. If the GC comes into play as a suspension the players get confused as they dont see you telling the player to knock it off.
     
  4. keely

    keely FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    10,403
    Likes Received:
    778
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    When a green card results in an automatic suspension, it forces umpires to use their communication skills to issue warnings prior to needing to bring out a green. That's a good thing as I see too many umpires flashing out green cards immediately and often.

    If a 2 min. suspension is easy to shut down, then it doesn't have a disproportionate impact on the game. However, the idea is to strongly discourage players from using the green card they expect to come first prior to the yellow as a "freebie" so they can engage in behaviour that we don't want to see on the pitch regardless.
     
  5. mosley59

    mosley59 FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2009
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    15
    This is old news Alex, run a quick search through this forum and you'll see a thread about this from when it was brought in. When it was brought up a few months ago I was all for it, thinking in terms of higher level games with experienced umpires, supporting it for the reason keely mentions - no "2nd chance", and makes umpires develop their communication skills, as well as giving the GC a meaningful weight rather than just a "don't do it again" slap on the wrist like it currently is.. However, I'm now in charge of umpires for our Secondary Schools competition, many of whom are new, and that's bringing a new perspective to it for me.

    Currently, I see newer umpires (read: less confident) happy to dish out a GC as it doesn't mean a huge disadvantage to a team if they've got the call wrong. I've seen a good few of these being handed out which I would have given a YC for. My concern with this rule being implemented at lower levels is that these newer umpires may be even less likely to go to their pocket when required, and if they do go to their pocket are going to be more likely to give the GC than a YC, since it's a light punishment that won't get the team as off-side with the umpire as a YC will. Further, I think that the suspension will blur the line between a GC and YC offence, making it harder for umpires to maintain consistency. If the FIH want to implement this rule, they should consider providing clear outlines of which offences should merit a GC and which should merit a YC, to help get a consistent approach across the board at all levels (international umpires may all be on or near the same page, but Secondary Schoolgirls' umpires here in my area are most definitely not and written outlines would be helpful).
     
  6. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,189
    Likes Received:
    1
    2nd year using this and i like it. It helps discipline the players to avoid the innocuous breaking down of play a clumsy tackle, not retreating gets you a card.
    In that 2 minutes we have scored goals when the opposition go down a player.
    We have lost goals when we have gone down a player.
     
  7. Ballingdon

    Ballingdon FHF Top Player

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    51
    Location:
    London
    I like it , as it is being applied in the World Cup right now. As keely says, it cuts out the 'free green', and makes us communicate the verbal warning. In particular, worked well today when two players were greened for elbowing each other in the circle. Two minutes is the iideal solution to this sort of behaviour - just go and cool down for 2 minutes and get over it! Wish I had the option last Saturday for a bickering centre forward.
     
  8. Goalie64

    Goalie64 FHF All Time Great

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    5,610
    Likes Received:
    272
    While it might work at top levels, where there are officials to monitor the suspensions etc, I think lower down, where the vast majority play, coach and umpire may well be another thing.

    If the communication by umpires to players needs to be better, then work on that, but I just don't see the need to bring in another level of complication in the control ladder

    Games have been speeded up by the application of recent rule changes - and for me that's a good thing, but where you have just the 2 umpires controlling the game, I think this may slow things down.
    If it were introduced for "normal" hockey :

    Stop time to give card (as now) and note who and why on my card.
    As was said on one commentary - the 2 minutes start from when the player sits down. Should I wait to start the game until the player is seated, so delaying play, or start play at once and give them a (say) 2 minute 30 second suspension.
    I assume in the FIH competition it's play starts at once and the officials monitor the suspension
     
  9. kaiwawao

    kaiwawao FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2009
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    9
    As above, it's noticeable that the ones in favour in this post are mostly national/international level who have a TD at games to monitor this. Soon as you step down to regional level with no TD you'll immediately see the problem - if it's a GC 2 min suspension and it's meant to be done "on the fly" so you get card out, play goes on and player goes off then with no TD you can't monitor this, immediately the player stops and argues you have to pull the game back losing the speed bonus - even if players are told they have to go they will often argue, even now when given a yellow.

    I don't buy the argument about lack of control or communication, someone who can't do that is not going to benefit from the 2 min GC anyway as they'll still struggle.

    Very much the way I am taught (including by national colleagues who do talks for us) is to establish the control ladder of initial warning (chat on the fly / PC against the team / big whistle sort of thing) then the GC for a repeat offence (or an early foul that is worthy of more than a verbal warning) and the team immediately know they are on a YC for a repeat offence. You can happily have a game with a few greens (probably no more than 3 really, 4 maybe if it's both sides and spread out in the game before the last 15 mins or so) and have a great game, without needing to suspend a player.

    To be honest, for the VAST majority of hockey (i.e. not the 1% or so that is the elite levels), the GC is not a "free" card, it's almost always a warning to players about their conduct as they simply don't know what is wrong and while there are some who will try and push their luck, they're unlikely to be swayed by the GC 2 min any more than the YC 5 min and thankfully are in the minority.

    With that in mind, sure at specific tournaments use this rule, for general hockey, no.
     
  10. Bondy

    Bondy FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2009
    Messages:
    394
    Likes Received:
    233
    Location:
    Auckland, NZ
    I agree with kaiwawao - it's fine to use when you have a TD/bench to keep time, but in your regular Saturday afternoon club games it has potential to be a disaster.

    I think it can also lead to one-downing on penalties - it becomes much easier to give a green where a yellow was deserved. Similarly, it's easy to give a verbal warning or do nothing with an offence that deserves a green.

    I tend to think that if it ain't broke then don't fix it - and I think there are plenty of other rules where tinkering could make the game more exciting.
     
  11. SeaBee

    SeaBee FHF Regular Player

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    10
    Most club players, particularly the ladies are mortified if they get a green card (and fined in my club - a practice ball). logistically a 2 min suspension will be a nightmare to administer at club level - will need a second stop watch and a rearview mirror for when to start the clock :)
     
  12. Goalie64

    Goalie64 FHF All Time Great

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    5,610
    Likes Received:
    272
    I heard one commentator say that there had not been many YC's issued at the World Cup.
    Assuming he was correct, and that, say, the numbers were down on previous tournaments is it because :

    a) Players are better behaved.
    b) Players are taking the GC suspension as a real warning and not a "free" card.
    c) GC's are being used for what could otherwise be YC offences.
     
  13. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
    FHF Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    4,226
    Likes Received:
    955
    Location:
    Hampshire (South Coast of England)
    Yes, but perhaps not all YC offences. Maybe just those in the closing minutes of a game, where the plain green is felt - at higher levels - to have lost it's relevance. So what would have been GC earlier in the game "must be" the yellow.

    With a 2 minute suspension, the green retains it punishment-value, so umpires use it.

    Edit to add: That said; at mainstream hockey without the luxury of techical officials, few umpires would want the additional workload of timing those 2 minute suspensions. So OK as an elite tournament regulation but please not for the 2011 Rule Book.
     
  14. Pesty jnr

    Pesty jnr FHF Newbie

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    The difference at elite and general hockey is a vast universe apart of skill, speed and tactics. The WC defntely had less YC partly because the green cards but I think on balance the absolute importance of discipline. Teams are too equal at the level and being one man down is too much of a disadvantage.
    Dont forget also the quality of the umpires, lots of discussion around the traps amongst the elite player and support staff means a much better awareness of the rules.
    At the lower levels especially the weekend brigade I think the old world rules are more than adequate. Keeping track of sendoffs is not an easy thing to do.
     

Share This Page