Field Player playing the ball on the ground

Discussion in 'Development, Skills & Advice' started by HH, Jul 25, 2008.

  1. HH

    HH FHF Newbie

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    Two areas that I am looking for advice.
    First Point
    I was umpiring a badgers game (Men and boys under 15) and one of the younger players played the ball whilst laying on the ground (by playing, I mean a swing at the ball as the attacker was trying to go round him) I blow for a foul and I also thought it looked dangerous.
    I was challenged by their umpire as to why I had blown it at half time, I said that I thought a field player could not play the ball with three point of contact with the ground, my colleague said that that was only for indoor hockey.
    Advice please, is it illegal? And as the umpire if I think the player is in danger i.e. lying on the ground as the ball is being played around him should I blow and stop the game. The proviso being that he has made a positive move i.e. dived to make a tackle and therefore put himself in danger.

    Second Point
    Third 11 game lower ability players.
    Opposition player is tackling form the wrong side on several occasions, coming in under the back swing, my player asks me to tell him to stop this as he is going to be hit as my player is pulling his swing to prevent hitting him.
    Do I have a word with the player?
    Do I speak to the coach captain and advise caution?
    Or do I let him get hit and have him learn his lesson the hard way?
     
  2. Bulsara

    Bulsara FHF Regular Player

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    On your first point, a player (outdoors) can play the ball while on the ground with the proviso that he is not creating danger either to himself or to any other player. The other area to watch for in this situation is, has the player caused a deliberate obstruction. If any of these situations arise i.e. danger or obstruction then blow quickly and remove the chance of injury, if the play is safe and there is no obstruction then play on. I would deal with someone who went to ground deliberately and put himself or another player in danger very harshly!

    On you second part and having just been involved in a game where there was a very serious injury to a Welsh forward who came in on the 'wrong' side and also the level you are talking about I would stop the game and call both him and the captain over and have a quiet word, if you can stop an injury or the likliehood of one happening then do so, the one thing you cannot do is turn a blind eye. In saying this at the higher level of the game I would let them play as they know what they are doing and it is their choice, although again I would be very careful about stick contact and obstruction for players coming in from the 'wrong' side.
     
  3. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Hi HH

    First Question

    No, it's not illegal for a field player to play the ball while lying on the floor in the outdoor game.

    That's just in indoor and even then there's no such thing as a "three points of contact rule". The rule actually says:

    This may seem picky, but the phrase "three points of contact" is misleading as it suggests that having (e.g.) two hands and one foot on the playing surface is OK, when you can see from the rule that it is not.

    Second Question

    You shouldn't really "coach" players while umpiring and as there's no longer any such thing as "the wrong side" a player is entitled to try to tackle from wherever he likes.

    Having said that, in a junior game I would definitely have a quiet word with the player and warn him that he might get hit. At senior level I'd leave him to find out the hard way.

    Hope that helps.
     
  4. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Good answer Red. Can't think of anything more.
     
  5. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I edited my last post because my view about players endangering themselves was diametrically opposed to that which Bulsara had posted, which raised an interesting issue for me.

    Bulsara said:


    I agree that at junior levels it is entirely appropriate to prevent players from doing anything that might endanger themselves. At senior levels, however, if a player did something that was dangerous only to her/himself and from which s/he gained no advantage or benefit, I'm pretty sure I'd play on. I'm not saying I wouldn't penalise a player for deliberately going to ground in front of an opponent; like Bulsara I'd come down on that harshly. What I am saying is that I wouldn't penalise someone for trying and failing to make a spectacular/dangerous diving tackle that had no effect on the other team but which left the tackler injured in some way.

    Am I on my own here? If so, I'll re-think my approach.
     
  6. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    The first question has been dealt-with, I think.

    I think 3rdXI is about the 'break-point', below which I, personally, would have a word, via the captain, with any player who I felt was continually putting him/herself into a potentially dangerous situation....I would hate to find myself thinking "I could see that coming", having taken no such action.
    I think it's a matter of individual choice, rather than being Right or Wrong.

    As a player, I have 'pulled-out' of shots at goal (or tried-to) when players have 'run across me' from my left..... on a few occasions I was unable to avoid hitting them, once causing a badly-cut eye. It was an unpleasant experience, even though I knew I was not at fault.

    I agree with red's edited post, regarding not penalising a player who does something dangerous only to himself...... but, as I said above, sometimes you can 'see it coming' and 'a word' (rather than a penalty) may prevent a subsequent (or another) injury.
     
  7. Bulsara

    Bulsara FHF Regular Player

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    Red and Justin - it is an interesting point about a player putting themselves in danger and not dealing with it immediately, from my point of view if they put themselves in the position to get injured but it did not effect play then yes i would play on and I am not sure I would do anything apart from having a quiet word.

    However, I also view that one of my main roles on a hockey pitch is to ensure that the game is safe for all participants and that includes the people who do things which endanger only themselves. If i thought they had done it deliberatley then i would probably yellow card them with an explanation in the bar afterwards, if it was a technique problem I would try and become preventative and stop the risk happening (especially at a lower level, not so much at the higher levels).

    I am interested on people's view on this as I would be quite willing to change my approach if it was thought to be the norm to let people do things which only injure or endanger themselves.
     
  8. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

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    I would agree with red and bulsara, but in the incident that bulsara saw, it was bad. When i was younger and played as a forward the shot that caused the injury would not have been allowed as it would have been dangerous no matter what side the defender came in from.
    When i played at a higher level and played this shot, that is moving away from the goal and shooting under arm i always got away with it and nearly always hit the defender either with my stick or the ball. Personally as a forward found i wold get a free shot the next time.
    I am of the view it should not be allowed as players doing this are normally off balance and loose cotrol of shot and follow through of the stick.

    I was watching the videos of some of the matches Bulsara and i think i saw a reverse stick shot allowed when 8 people people in the circle between ball and goal, directly 4 forwards and 4 defenders plus gk.
    Personally i think that is dangerous and should be blown if the player tries to shoot.
    I have seen a s/c given when a forward shoots the nearest player ducks (another forward) and the ball hits the next player in the chest, the defender.
    I was told that the defender had the choice to get out of the way.
    How can they, if they cannot see the ball.
    Plus with that interpretation shoud all reverse sticks shots be free shots at goal if the defender cannot get close.
    Only a thought and i am interested in your thoughts
     
  9. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Just a quick thought here guys: we're exploring what approach to take to players who do things on the pitch that endanger only themselves and from which they gain no advantage. Please let's not get bogged down in discussions about dangerously lifted balls, defenders on the line "asking for it", this camp against that camp, and so on and so on, ad nauseam.

    Also, let's assume we're not talking about 'junior' games, because we all seem to be agreed that we would take preventative action in such games.

    So, if in a 1st team game of a decent standard a player did something reckless that resulted in injury to her/himself but had no effect on the other team whatsoever would would you do?

    I say I would simply play on and take no action. Justin agrees, more-or-less.

    Bulsara says he would "probably yellow card them". (Please correct me if I'm wrong Bulsara, but that's how I read what you'd posted.)

    Grumpy agrees with both Bulsara and me!

    What would you do? All views welcome!
     
  10. Bulsara

    Bulsara FHF Regular Player

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    Red, I have no problems with that but a clarification might help people understand my views more.

    An example of a yellow card offence may be someone who lies in front of the attacker who is about to shoot, stops the shot, yet the attacker rounds the player and puts the ball in the net anyway. An example of doing nothing would be someone who dives to make a tackle misses everyone but injures himself in the process.

    Hope that clears it up. I am very interested on people's views on this as I want to understand what players, officials and spectators want.
     
  11. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    "So, if in a 1st team game of a decent standard a player did something reckless that resulted in injury to her/himself but had no effect on the other team whatsoever would would you do?

    I say I would simply play on and take no action. Justin agrees, more-or-less."


    Not 'more-or-less', red, simply 'Justin agrees' :yes:
     
  12. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Uh-oh, mass outbreak of agreement spotted on FHF!

    We're on the same page Bulsara. That would be a yellow card.

    Ok, move along folks. Nothing to see here. The debate's over!
     
  13. Grumpy

    Grumpy FHF Legend

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    Bugger this, Umpires and Coaches agreeing, i am going into therapy right now.
    The rest of the forum may go into shock..............................
     
  14. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Wait, I haven't even gotten in on this one yet!

    (I hate the time difference, I miss all the good early-morning UK-time action.)

    Um, I agree with red and justin all the way, and pretty much with Bulsara.

    Damn it!
     
  15. Su*x

    Su*x FHF Regular Player

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    aw poor keely!
    i was wonderin why u hadnt posted on this yet!
    anyway back on topic!

    in regards to the 1st situation
    i watched a ladies GB vs Argentina game a few months ago in Reading, where one of the GB players repeatedly diving onto the ground to extend her reach...on a few occasions she was successful and brought the ball back onto GBplay! so yeah...in short agree with everyone above lol!
     
  16. animal

    animal FHF All Time Great

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    Ok, I'm here now you can all tell me it was the keeper's fault and the cheeky bugga shouldn't have stopped the ball! :p
    Argue you fools, it's good for the blood preasure!

    ANIMAL
     
  17. Neo

    Neo Technical Moderator

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    OK (coming in to this a little later than everyone else) this is good question - just the sort of "whatif" that helps lots of umpires through this forum. Here's an interesting comparison.

    There is in the rules for penalty corner play (bought on to us by the South Koreans) a rule that penalises defenders deliberately running into the path of the hit, risking injury, in order to generate a FHD.
    (13.3.l ---
    A defender who is clearly running into the shot or
    into the taker without attempting to play the ball
    with their stick must be penalised for dangerous
    play. )


    A defender who deliberately and continually tackles from the wrong side could be construed to be intentionally attempting to restrict the attackers free shot at the ball, thereby an intentional obstruction. As stupid as it sounds (why would you put yourself in that dangerous position just to put off the attackers hit) it is not so stupid if you put it in the context of 13.3.l.

    So another course of action could be to warn the defender about the wrong side tackle (obstruction) and penalise accordingly if it reoccurs. This interpretation does not need to involve any dialogue with the coach/captain or attcking player, just control of the game and also preemptive action that may prevent injury.
     
  18. Bulsara

    Bulsara FHF Regular Player

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    The rules state that you cannot 'suicide' run or run down the barrell at a short corner. There is no longer a 'wrong' side to tackle in hockey and therefore if you have the skill to do so, you should be allowed to do it.

    On the short corner note I have yet to see many 3rd XI games where players pad up and run straight at the person shooting at a penalty corner wheres for a while that was prevalent at international level and has unfortunately been seen in two tournaments recently again, by the Chinese.
     
  19. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    ^ What he said ^ :)
     
  20. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Yes, I'm completely with Bulsara on this last point also.

    If the attempted tackle isn't actually an attempt on the ball but restricts the attacker's ability to play the ball, then it's intentional obstruction and a breakdown tackle and should be dealt with as such. However, players can successfully and safely tackle from any side with sufficient skill and timing and cause no danger to themselves or the attacker.
     

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