Drilling and Blind Firing

Discussion in 'Indoor Umpiring Questions' started by Ridge, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. Ridge

    Ridge FHF Star Player

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    So there is nothing in the rule book that says in plain words "you can't drill the ball into a player" or "you can't blindly fire into a player" but we as umpires agree that it is dangerous. Are we given any guidance from anywhere on exactly how to call this? This seams to be a big inconstancy among us as umpires and I would just like some help on it. Here in BC, indoor isn't a huge thing and there are only a few tournaments here and there so umpires don't get a lot of practice at it. This weekend, we had a tournament in Vancouver at the Richmond Oval with very few experienced teams and even fewer umpires. One umpire went as far as saying you can't even put the ball in the hook of the stick at all and some who never called drilling at all.
     
  2. John

    John FHF Legend

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    Everyone knows this is nowhere
    Isn't it simply dangerous play?
     
  3. Ridge

    Ridge FHF Star Player

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    I guess that is it simply put, huh?

    Let's try this approach, how would you go about introducing this concept to a new umpire who has never umpired indoor or seen it umpired before?
     
  4. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    Taken from the England Hockey indoor season briefings to the teams from the umpire managers,,,

    6. Spin and drill is dangerous and will be penalised. Drilling will be blown if the defender is set, with stick on the ground and the ball is injected between their hips line.
     
  5. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    • i.e. when the ball is pushed forcibly at the stick of a player who is set in a defensive position with his/her stick stationary on the floor between their feet (I presume that the guidance refers to "hips" so that defenders do not try to adopt an artificially wide stance: it's easy to move your feet wider apart, but not quite so easy to move your hips!). The only reason that an attacker would do this is (a) to engineer a lift off the defender's stick or (b) to hurt the defender. It is dangerous and should be stopped.

      On the other hand, it cannot be classed as drilling if the defender:
      • is not set defensively; or,
      • has his/her stick in the air; or,
      • has his/her stick outside the line of his/her hips.
     
  6. zippytime

    zippytime FHF Legend

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    Distance from the defender is a consideration too, isn't it?
     
  7. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    Yes Zippy it is.. Anything greater than 4m and the chances of it being drilling is greatly reduced. Past 5m no way.
     
  8. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Yep, should have included that in my list of exceptions as CH says.
     
  9. g9

    g9 FHF Legend

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    I was habitually missing this last year and have worked to nail it this year.....distance being the thing that set it in my mind as whether or not the attack or defense should get the call. And guidance I've gotten here from senior umpires is, if it meets the criteria cited by Red and Zippy, you should blow it for danger.
     
  10. Ridge

    Ridge FHF Star Player

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    That was all extremely helpful! Thanks everyone!
     
  11. UmpireHockey.com

    UmpireHockey.com FHF All Time Great

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    Agreed. Very helpful. I've been focused only on the distance and defender set, not the hip line (which make much more sense).

    I've been calling it dangerous even when the ball is played into the set player's stick that is outside the hips...so, arguably the attacker is trying to go around the defender -- though the defender's stick is there.

    So, if I have the guidance correct, we would let hard play onto the stick of the defender if it is (a) not just blindly played and (b) strikes the part of the stick that is outside the defender's hips.

    Thanks...Cris
     
  12. NicfromSweden

    NicfromSweden FHF All Time Great
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    I think there are going to be some very very dissapointed defenders with smashed left hands if you only follow the hipline rule of tumb, also if only following the hipline we will start seeing players trying to "win" corners again because who can blame him if he smashed the defenders hand " but ump he was holding it outside his hipline" just a thought
     
  13. Ridge

    Ridge FHF Star Player

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    I think if a ball is played outside the hip line of a defender, the attacker is genuinely trying to pass around them.
     
  14. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Agreed.
     
  15. NicfromSweden

    NicfromSweden FHF All Time Great
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    Okay so I have some questions about this sitation then
    [​IMG]
    the picture dont seem to work here is the link http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=114682511932738&set=a.114525925281730.16659.114468441954145
    1 is the attacker allowed to push the ball as hard as he can in to the stick of the gk to try to "win" a pc? the stick is not by any means in the hipline of the gk
    2 its hard to tell in this picture if the defender is keeping the glove inside his hipline but lets say he isnt can the attacker push the ball hard in to the glove of the defender?
    3 the hook of the defenders stick and much of the stick is outside the hipline can the ball be pushed hard in to the stick to "win" a pc?

    it should also make it legal to drill a ball through a defenders stick who is defending his left sideboard even if the stick have been down several seconds before the ball is pushed in to his stick because the defenders stick is not in his hipline

    I know this guidence is from the english league so other nations might have other views on the situation personaly i thnk if the defenders stick is flat against the ground before the ball is pushed in to it then its drilling and should be penalised after all the rule is there because in the past teams pushed balls hard in to the other teams stick/gloves to either hurt the player or to "win" a pc or freehit
     
  16. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    To answer your question...

    1. No. However, this is not "drilling" and would not be as harshly penalised as drilling would be. They are trying to get a manufactured lift off the stick, which is a foul. However, there is no danger element to it.

    2. No If they are set etc.etc. then that IS drilling

    3. Same as 1.

    Drilling is all about danger, the same as the spin & release... it should be dealt with severely.
     
  17. NicfromSweden

    NicfromSweden FHF All Time Great
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    I just find it odd because according to the hipline way of thinking the player is trying to play the ball around the defender and goalkeeper in this example which should be allowed?
     
  18. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    Drilling is not the only foul in indoor hockey.. but it is one of the more serious. We have defined what drilling is. The separate foul of trying to manufacture a lift exists and should again be dealt with. However this is less serious as there a smaller element of danger.


    The act of playing a ball hard through a stick is not drilling until all the other factors are taken into account eg. Distance, Hip-line etc. etc.
     
  19. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Nic

    As GardHappy says above, there are two different offences involved here:

    - one is the dangerous act of drilling the ball directly at a player in an attempt to get the ball to lift and which may also injure him;

    - the other is an attempt to get the ball to lift but which isn't specifically dangerous to the defender.

    They should both be penalised, but with differing degrees of severity.

    The trouble at the moment is that, for various reasons, lots of indoor players (and umpires, to be fair) are actively seeking examples of "drilling" during a game. This leads to lots of appeals, many of which are very misguided. It doesn't actually happen all that often; and, if it is penalised appropriately when it does happen, it rarely happens again, in that game.

    Put at its most simple: it is NOT driling every time an attacker plays the ball in a defender's direction. In my view, drilling is as defined in the earier posts on this thread.

    Does that help to clear things up at all?
     
  20. NicfromSweden

    NicfromSweden FHF All Time Great
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    sure I get what you mean but i guess this is about the same as the obstruction discussion if defenders or Gk lock a attacker at the sideboard there is a German way of seeing it which is adopted by countries who use germany as their example of how to play and then there is the other way of seeing it, to hit a defender on his glove have always been seen as a big no no same thing with the gloves and shield discussion

    I guess indoor is making people view so many things so different because there is so little international tournaments played.
     

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