Discipline - on and off the Field of Play.

Discussion in 'Game Management & Communication' started by controller, Sep 25, 2008.

  1. controller

    controller FHF Legend

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    OK, everybody has had they say in two different threads of decisions of Umpires and Referees'.

    I would like to know how you would or could improve discipline in hockey games, week in and week out at grass roots level, so that is the games with out a technical delegate, Match Officials, or umpires who have been to the top!

    Like most sports we blame society for the down turn in what is going on every day in the UK but this is a world wide thing, and covers all levels of Hockey, but what can we do to improve and how can we ask the EH or EHA or FIH to assist us to make this happen?
     
  2. g9

    g9 FHF Legend

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    At the grass roots, I think a lot of it has to do with coaches instilling the need for respect and not allowing their players to question the calls while the game is on; there is a time and a place and a way to ask questions of the umpires, but in the heat of the moment, that usually isn't it. Now, having thoroughly PO'd the coaches and players, I will say that the respect also has to come back from the umpires....they have to improve their soft skills, listening and communicating with players in such a way that says they are not being dictatorial and are in fact approachable. It is a balance, respect for the authority of the umpire from one side, and respect for the players from the other.

    I am working on this balance right now within my own team, and the player in question will probably have to learn through a carding what the right way is to talk to an umpire; but the umpire in question needs to learn that it's ok to be human and admit to mistakes. We shall see where our situation goes...
     
  3. Ballingdon

    Ballingdon FHF Top Player

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    Well, I think you have the roots of the solution , Controller - local action. Umpires can't fix up discipline problems. We, the whole sport, have to show we support all those values that have fallen out of fashion. Fair play, respect for the opposition and the umpires, it's a game to be won - but not at all costs. Start young, reward good discipline. Ask players to read the rules, understand how the rules are there to protect them and support those who have to control the match. Run rules sessions? . As I posted elsewhere on this forum, watch out for coaches who encourage players to play outside the rules.

    I don't think the top authorities can do much more than they have - encourage participation, lay down codes of conduct and punish bad offenders. Fair play awards for good discipline?

    All seems like motherhood and apple pie - if there were an answer we'd have done it by now. I'm not complacent - but we are a substantially amateur sport , we're not soccer (sorry socccer!)
     
  4. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    I agree that it has to start in the clubs.

    I think it also helps a lot for umpires to request more help from captains than.... IME at the'lower levels'..... most do.

    Captains should be aware that they will be held accountable for unacceptable behaviour, and where necessary suspended alongside the offender.
    Sending-off two at a time has a pretty salutory effect, I found, on the one occasion I felt the need for it!....especially if you warn the new 'on-field captain' that the same may happen to him :eek:
    Extreme (an exceptional) situations sometimes require extreme measures!

    I sent the abusive player off for 10 and his captain for a 'very short 5' (just to make the point)...when the captain came back he was very chastened...and so was his team :)

    (And btw, Controller, I have never had the luxury of a TD, or even, most times, teams with match-day coaches :) )
     
  5. Hockeyjon

    Hockeyjon FHF Regular Player

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    Controller
    At district level in Scotland the allegation from players that the umpire is cheating for the benifit of his (or her) team is a common one.
    I have my doubts as to how much this actally happens, we by nature only ever focus/ remember the poor decisions made by an official and immediatly rationalise that because he/she is the opposition umpire they are cheating. At grass roots level in the West of Scotland we have the following in place to help with indiscipline.
    1. Local committee discipline convener deals with individual Reds.
    2. If a single player has so many Yellow cards in a define calander period (i think its a year) a automatic 2 match suspension is imposed.
    3. Teams who are continually cited for poor behavaiour or sportsmanship are invited to formal meeting to address these issues.

    Additionally to demonstate to the teams we except that the umpire may require coaching we have a feedback marking system on the match result form, which we ask the captains to complete. The local UA use this to target resources to help umpires who are continually underperforming (allegedly).
    I think the majority of the control issues boil down to that old chestnut consistancy (or lack of) when applying the rules. Again the local UA has tried to tackle this by issuing a formatted (& laminated) premach checklist that every umpire is encouraged to go through with a coullegue and if nesseccary captain prior to the match (we have put the pre set umpire craft night & U A meetings on the reverse side to maximize publicity and stop the didnt know coaching support was available argument).
    I am going to try to attach a copy FYI (don't know if it'll work though
     
  6. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Since we are in the Umpiring Corner, I would say the umpires' contribution to discipline would be 'consistency'.

    What really seems to upset players is when they don't get something, or get away with something, that they did get last week, or even earlier in this game.

    When clubs run out of umpires it is always the lowest teams that get the occasional umpire, who might be guided by rule myths rather than the Rule Book. And those teams play to the rules they know, which are the rules they get, which are the myths, which they then apply when forced to umpire. And so it continues...

    When there is an active coaching programme in the umpiring association, the real rules have a better chance of filtering down to grass roots. That displaces the myths. Which brings greater consistency. Players believe decisons are right. Then discipline improves.
     
  7. aussieump

    aussieump FHF All Time Great
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    On the field it starts with team captains. They are respnsible for the conduct of their players. I am sure if the capt. receives YC for ill disiplined acts by their team they will soon clamp down on this. Coaches they can control off field issues and if necessary drag a player before they get a card.

    Umpires. the need to as a group within that particular association/club need to address issues of conduct promptly, using control measures available to them, this does not mean using cards as the first resort. By doing such and them continuing to demonstrate they will continue along the lines brings consistency in this area.

    Education of players and officials is important and holding club/association rules sessions, umpire brieifngs etc assists with this education process.

    In the end the individual player is the one that needs to start the entire process as they can control the first instance, outward displays are what gets people into trouble.
     
  8. ArchusXV

    ArchusXV FHF Regular Player

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    I think coaches need to instill in players that you don't question decision unless you genuinely don't know the rule or until after the game.

    I think little things like shaking hands with the opposition after the game help a lot.

    I would also say that having played junior level hockey up till this season that players that backchat, etc. should be immediately substituted by their coaches.
     
  9. johnreiss

    johnreiss FHF Top Player

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    I totally agree that this must start wuth the lower clubs and coaches, captains, players, umpires, spectators in fact everone has a duty to behave in a sprtsmanlike manner which means no appealing, no swearing, no "back chat" .

    if only this was instilled in all players from the day when they 1st pick up a hockey stick to the day they finally hang it up.

    I totally agree that umpires also need to play their part. Finger wagging, abuse (verbal or otherwise), ranting etc is counter-productive.

    Would it not also be helpful for clubs (especially low level ones) to have a" meet the umpires" before matches(not necessarily the same day) where 'things' can be discussed calmly.

    i feel at least this airing could prevent such wooly thinking as:-

    1 The GK played the ball ouside the circle, therefore it must be a PC.

    2 The ball was lifted so it must be dangerous.

    3 If a dedender fouls by playing the ball withhis body as a result of it being lifted into him he cannot gain an advantage.

    4 I got the ball -so it can't be a foul (ususally after a tacjle that takes a player or player's stick FIRST or at the same time.

    5. I know I deliberatrely kicked it but it was only just inside the 25, so how can that be a PC.

    6. Any foot is an offence!

    + the old favourites - "defenders are fair game" and it hit me on the head, so it must be dangerous.

    All these have to be interpreted, and players must be educated, as part of their coaching, into how most umpires will interpret them.

    Just as an adage- I have heard the above statements from players during many games and it is therefore clear that far too many will question umpires when they don't appear to know the rules.
     
  10. ArchusXV

    ArchusXV FHF Regular Player

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    from my experience that will always be a rule :p
     
  11. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    Don't all umpires think that? :sorry:
     
  12. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    No deegum, we don't. Even those of us who don't agree with your preferred interpretation of certain rules do not think that anybody on the hockey pitch is "fair game". To suggest that we do, even in a rather strained attempt at humour, is ridiculous.
     
  13. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    note the use of the smilie Red.

    the nearest I could get to a rueful smile.

    At the abysmally low level of hockey to which old age and decrepitude consigns me (as a player), it often FEELS like it's true.

    Have a go at Archus XV as well. he's young and fit and probably not beyond REDemption

    ;)
     
  14. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    Yeah, pick on someone younger than yourself, Red ;)

    (I always do lol )
     
  15. deegum

    deegum FHF Legend

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    I don't have much choice in here :(
     
  16. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    That was MY point.....it's only numbers :)
     
  17. foozbear

    foozbear FHF Regular Player

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    Being an umpire that is having to face several incidents of disregard for umpires in general...I find I am having to resort to some people skills (Holy smokes...I just went there)

    First thing is...I dont bring out the cards at EVERY infraction...I try to talk to the player quietly and ask them to please stop doing what it is that they are doing.

    secondly....I look them in the eyes when I give the decision...How many umpires do you see that when they give a signal and blow the whistle....they look somewhere else.

    I chat with players around me...if they made a good run...I tell em...if the goalie makes a great svae I tell them...it helps to have ONE ally on the team.

    before the game I talk to the captains...tell them I have been noticing some fooloish behaviours from various teams over the past week and I REALLY would not like to see them happen here...and list the remarks or abuse or whatever it is I dont wish to deal with. The Captains then have fair warning if anything crops up.

    I will call the captain over during a game and remind them of our discussion...no need for a card...gives him a chance to talk to his players...if it happens again then I am open to further escalations.

    This past week...I had a team playing a game...as can sometimes be the case...a goalie got in the way of the ball and a defender and I couldnt see whether it was a foul by the attacker or not. It sounded like contact was made but whether it was a defender or attacking stick I couldnt be certain.
    The defendeing team started the moaning...I looked to my counterpart and he couldnt provide me with a view either way. I called the captain of defending team....he was sitting on the sidelines and didnt say anything.
    I asked again....captain please....I was only going to have a chat with the guy and ask him to calm his team down. what happended next is comical in that it didnt need to happen.
    One player said we dont have a captain...I then asked..."ok so who here is the guy in charge? " to which was replied...."dont worry about it...ignore him and play on". By this stage I am quite unamused...a called the offending player over to have a "chat" he refused...Immediately a yellow card appeared in my hand (like magic)
    ...asked him to leave the field please...I asked again for the captai and offered that à wasnt doing this for the good of my health" to which the YC player commented "well your not doing it for the good of hockey either". I then looked and the card in my hand had changed from yellow to red and I asked him to please exit the field.

    All that sillyness that could have been avoided.

    The problem we have is the lack of umpires in the association that ANY body that has played any sort of overseas hockey THINKS that the local umpires are not worthy of any respect.

    what they dont realise is that many of the good umpires started in a similar setting.

    NOW that being said and boring you with drivel.....

    The association HAS told us to ENFORCE the player code of conduct....that means cards and the like from the moment it starts.

    So with the Association behind us we are slowly bringing the league to an understanding.

    Now its up to the individual teams to figure it out...as it stands now if you get a certain amount of cards ina season you lose points from the wins youve had. we are now making the team responsible for their players.

    Its one way to solve it.
     
  18. Su*x

    Su*x FHF Regular Player

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    i;ve found that discipline is coached from a young level with our club

    I train the kids, and we always teach them to respect the umpires decision, and if in doubt defer to your captain!!!

    it seems to work well with our club, we only had ONE green card last season, and that was from one of our younger players who does question the umpire if she doesnt understand a decision...unfortunately this was taken as dissent and she got green carded :(
     
  19. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    I like your style foozbear :)
    Sadly, I have been accused of 'coaching' after acknowledging skillful play and talking to players :(
    (But I still do it...especially at the lower levels, where they often don't get much encouragement!)
    This is one area which I have found that women seem to misunderstand more than men.
     
  20. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    I'd agree with that assessment. I find it easier to compliment male players than female on a good play as they seem to take that (as many other things) less personally - but I still try. Just quietly. :)
     

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