Management & Communication Blowing in the other umpires circle

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by Pippinn, Oct 4, 2017.

  1. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,801
    Likes Received:
    556
    It depends, you can see a situation where everyone but your colleague knows something has happened, the defence start appealing or turning and attack continue, someone hits a shot when defence are not prepared or someone clatters the attacker or players get annoyed if he plays on and score and defence get upset etc. It's probably better to say after and definitely you should never stand there pointing for a PC but never say never
     
  2. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,907
    Likes Received:
    410
    Location:
    Southern England
    If more than one attacker is appealing I'm catching my supporting colleague's eye and expecting feedback. Ditto if I think something happened but don't know what. Or radios then no problem. If i'm not looking for feedback then don't interfere. Happy enough for my colleague to blow for an attacking foul provided we've discussed it before hand.
     
  3. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,732
    Likes Received:
    656
    Thank you for that excellent contribution to the discussion. You have really laid out your point well and explained it thoroughly. How did I not see the obvious error in my thinking? Clearly I should change my umpiring to suit.

    Or, you know, I could keep doing what our international umpires do, based on the principles discussed with our international UMs, recognised by our international players, and have a chance of getting close to that level.
     
    Paul Watts likes this.
  4. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,801
    Likes Received:
    556
    Your initial post could be read like you were advocating umpires don't undermine their partner as a priority over giving the correct decision, certainly when I read it, that seemed to be what you were implying i.e. supporting umpire doesn't blow obvious foot that colleague has missed in the D on the grounds of being seen to work as a team.

    A longer explanation such as advising you stop time after to ensure the correct decision is made and that the umpires make the decision together would probably have been better than a sarcastic ad hominem post however.
     
  5. sord89

    sord89 FHF Star Player

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    36
    You're welcome.I honestly couldn't tell as, to me, it seemed an absurd thing to say but that's just my opinion and understand others think differently.

    International umpires get things wrong and are overruled by referrals in the interest of getting the correct decision. If your partner sees's a very clear mistake then I see no problem with stopping time chatting away from players and coming to the correct decision.

    The correct decision over the appearance of competence anytime. Players and supporters are not idiots like your post suggests. They notice when umpires do this and it damages the relationship.

    I bet you speak to players in that tone as well and I bet they absolutely love it! All for the appearance of power and competence regardless of results :)
     
  6. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,732
    Likes Received:
    656
    Or, as we've pointed out several times now, we can have both the appearance of competence and the correct decision, by applying communication skills on the field.

    You blow a PC in the other circle, you look like you can't communicate or work with your colleague. As much as you want to pretend it doesn't matter, you do make your colleague look incompetent and it does affect their management of the game and it is absolutely a dick move not needed.

    Missing a PC decision is not anywhere near as big as that fundamental problem you (and others) seem to have.
     
  7. careeman

    careeman FHF Super Star

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2013
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    501
    With or without radios part of my pre match chat is 'DO NOT blow attacking decisions in my D'

    With radios tell me 'corner' and if I've missed something or I agree that's the best advantage I'll blow it.

    Without them you have not been privy to my thought process and so haven't heard a lot of what Ive called or played as advantage and its too big a risk that from 30-40m minumum you MIGHT have seen something I've missed.
    I'll deal with the fallout if I balls it up and / or stop and talk to you if needs be.
    Players soon appeal if they feel something is missed in which case I will look at you (meerkat style) and you can give me a big signal for PC.

    Defensive hit outs on the far side of my goal just blow them.
    I'm not precious that situation.
     
  8. The chief

    The chief FHF Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2013
    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    369
    You're not precious about the boring defensive free hits, but you are about the juicy stuff.
     
  9. careeman

    careeman FHF Super Star

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2013
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    501
    If you like but equally the defence gain nothing with a delayed decision.
    The attack might do.
     
  10. CH.ump

    CH.ump FHF Top Player

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2013
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    57
    What @careeman says.
    From experience as a player and as an umpire, where I have seen it done, when the disengaged umpire blows a pc in his colleague's circle the defenders immediately interpret this as meaning an incompetent at their end. Just don't do it.
    FHD's are not an issue and do not get the same interpretation. don't ask me why this is the case but it just is.
     
  11. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
    FHF Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    10,678
    Likes Received:
    2,782
    Simple question: have you ever seen a top level umpire awarding a PC in their colleague’s D?
     
  12. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,907
    Likes Received:
    410
    Location:
    Southern England
    They cheat, they use radios...
     
  13. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
    FHF Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    10,678
    Likes Received:
    2,782
    A very fair point! Let me re-word my question: did you ever see a top level umpire award a PC in their colleague’s D in the days before radios were commonplace?
     
    shipstontkd, Ravennghorde and Pippinn like this.
  14. asc1991

    asc1991 FHF Top Player

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    15
    I don't nor do my team.

    I interpret it as "this is why we have two umpires" and "Its good the umpires are working together".

    I don't know what type of person would interpret it as incompetence - certainly not a person I'd very much like to meet.
     
    The chief likes this.
  15. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
    FHF Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    4,226
    Likes Received:
    956
    Location:
    Hampshire (South Coast of England)
    Agree that with defensive FH, it's ok for support umpire to blow.

    For PC or PS offence in circle, the support umpire must not signal or blow, but might say "PC" over the radio. They must let their colleague umpire their circle, trusting that they will soon enough pick up the signs that something has happened - typically attackers raising hands and voices. Most important is to be ready for the look that says "Help"; then you can signal, and they can blow and award the penalty, then acknowledge where the help came from.

    There might have been a bit of a delay, but: a) we restart with the right penalty; b) the right umpire awarded it; c) it was decided by the umpiring team, not influenced by the appeal. All is well.

    If your engaged colleague does not look, and the uproar from the attack isn't enough to make them look, then the moment will pass without the PC you were thinking. Ah well... it happens. One to discuss later.
     
  16. Majordomo

    Majordomo FHF Newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2015
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    This thread has been really interesting and has scratched at the surface of a number of issues.
    I feel that an assumption has been made that the umpire who has the D has absolutely clear viability of everything that happens in that D. - My thought is that is absolutely not the case and play that happens on the far side of the D with multiple players has to be obstructed. In addition, I personally am not able to clearly judge 5m calls when the play is on the far side of the D. Because of this I NEED the support of my colleague
    As a consequence, I am looking to my colleague to help me and I am happy to be influenced by their better angle on the play. If mics are being used this is an easy discussion as I would expect the call over the mic and I will respect that. In situations where there is no mic, I am happy to have that call made assuming I have not shouted or signaled advantage. There is no ego issue as long as the correct decision is being made. Putting my player head on - If a decision is correct I cannot argue - If a decision is completely missed because the supporting umpire has not blown - that is frustrating.
    To add another angle - I have had occasions to umpire with a colleague who is far less mobile than I would ideally want so as a consequence, areas of the pitch I would welcome assistance on are actually being covered by an umpire who is 50m away ..... Not good for credibility.
     
  17. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
    FHF Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    4,226
    Likes Received:
    956
    Location:
    Hampshire (South Coast of England)
    Agreed, @Majordomo, that the engaged umpire needs help around the far side of their circle. But there is a way of doing it:

    Rule 11.3 says that, in the circle, the engaged umpire makes the call. So please don't ask/expect the supporting umpire to blow the whistle. Absolutely do ask/expect them to help (from a good position to see), but ask/expect that help to come as a signal, when/after you look for it, or as a word over the radio. The whistle and signal for the penalty then comes from the engaged umpire, as per 11.3.

    Doing it like that works - helps give confident and credible decisions. Other ways of 'helping' tend only to help players and coaches undermine the umpiring team.
     
    sord89 likes this.
  18. sord89

    sord89 FHF Star Player

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    36
    Spot on.

    For me the most important things for umpires...

    1. keep the players and the game safe
    2. get the right decisions

    Both to the best of their ability. Mistakes will happen we have to live with that. If one umpire can help another out if something has been clearly missed then everyone should be all for that.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting blow the whistle straight away, assuming no radios or radios are down or whatever it may be. Let it play and when appropriate blow the whistle, discuss away from players, "excuse me chap but there was a clear foul you may have missed, any reason it wasn't a PC?"

    Come to the decision. Whatever that may be. To be seen discussing it and coming to the decision over big decisions is spot on from a players point of view.

    That is truly working together, not backing the other up when they may have made a major cock up. Players are not idiots, they see it happening and lose trust when it does happen.

    There are ways of doing it that suit everyone. A flat rule to never make a decision in their circle for the appearance of unity will and does negatively impact the umpires relationship with the players and as such the game
     
  19. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,184
    Likes Received:
    844
    In an umpire's circle is where an umpire can do some of their finest work either blowing or not blowing, nuanced upon what they can see at very close quarters with a lot of consequence for very subtle actions.
    The umpire outside the D probably cannot see that stuff and as such is in danger of inadvertently using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I have always thought that good umpires can understand what she/he cannot see as well as what they can see and act accordingly.
    As such, making a call in your colleague's D is likely to fail to take into consideration things which are being monitored by your colleague and as such is likely to be unfair to one team or another.
     
  20. John Lee

    John Lee FHF Newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2017
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    6
    Where in the rules does it mention where an umpire can and can't blow his whistle. A free hit is a free hit regardless of where it occurs and who blows the whistle. I can only assume the real argument here is whether an umpire should ignore a penalty when they see one based on what part of the field the offence occurs in.
     

Share This Page