Management & Communication Blowing in the other umpires circle

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by Pippinn, Oct 4, 2017.

  1. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Starter

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    Over the first few games of the season (lacking radios), on a couple of occasions I have been in the position of seeing a rather obvious foul by the attack my counterpart has missed in their circle. I have been told by a lot of people not to blow in that situation but to indicate a foul has happened, on one occasion this led to a reversal of a goal. Have I been slightly misled? Two different umpires who have received recent coaching have told me opposite things on this issue

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  2. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    You should agree with your colleague before the match whether you blow for attack fouls in their D.
    And if I don’t look up and make eye contact don’t signal anything in my D.


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  3. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    I would suggest only ever blowing in your colleague's circle if all of the following conditions are met:
    • You've agreed in your pre-match discussion that you're both happy to go down that route.
    • It's a defensive free hit (you should NEVER blow for a PC, end of discussion).
    • It's an offence close to the edge of the circle - you really shouldn't be blowing deep into your colleague's D.
    • The offence is in a position where there's no way that your colleague could have seen it.
    • You're as sure as you can be that s/he's not seen it.
    • Both teams are going to accept that you're blowing that way - eg don't be blowing a free hit for "your" team in that position if you're not a neutral umpire.
    I would also caution strongly against signalling for anything that you think your colleague has missed until s/he looks at you for help. There are various discussions across the forum that explain why this is good practice.
     
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  4. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    When I do appointed games we generally agree that anything on the far side of the D that I can't see is fair game for my colleague to blow, ditto stuff like pushing in the back, but since we've had radios it's a lot easier to just tell them "PC for feet if you want it" or "FHD attacker fouled" etc so we don't need to blow. I wouldn't really blow in a club game except with an inexperienced umpire who isn't controlling the game and I can see the situation going to pot and it needs controlling
     
  5. The chief

    The chief FHF Legend

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    I agree with @Gingerbread. I'll add that I think that a lot of umpires are far too precious about this. To say that you should NEVER blow for a PC in the other D is a bit over the top. I had one example once where the attacker was running directly towards me (other umpire's D), and as they were nearing the edge of the D a foul was committed against them. The other umpire couldn't have seen it due to a number of players between him and the offence, so I immediately blew it. No questions asked by either side or the other umpire, it was simply the right thing to do in the situation. Anywhere else on the pitch we are advised that generally the umpire in play is the one to whom the direction of play is heading. Not only was the ball heading in my direction, but I was actually closer to it and had a better view of it than my colleague.
    Agreed though that 99% of the time, the umpire who's D it is makes the decision.
     
  6. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Fair enough. I stand by my assertion that you shouldn't ever blow a PC in your colleague's D. There are other ways in which you can manage the situation without blowing the PC yourself. But if it's worked for you in the past, @The chief, then that's all good.
     
  7. shipstontkd

    shipstontkd FHF Top Player

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    I'm sitting in both @redumpire and @The chief camps on this one. I do say to my partner in the pre match chat that if they see a FHD in my D, that I have obviously missed, to just blow it. However please do not blow a PC as I may be playing an advantage that they may not be able to see or have missed. Granted the use of radios has made these situations easier to manage but always best to firm these things up before the game to prevent any mishaps. ;)
     
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  8. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    Prematch talk: if you see it coming out, take it out. If you see it going in, one arm and hold the whistle, I'll pick it up from there. If I look up, signal big. Never both arms and a whistle.

    Good communication to same effect - why be that guy instead?

    It's not about "being precious", it's about maintaining the areas of responsibility and not undermining your colleague's (appearance of) authority on the field.
     
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  9. sord89

    sord89 FHF Star Player

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    If it's really obvious and there is no clear advantage just blow the whistle, signal that you are going to discuss with the other umpire. Discuss, come to the correct decision.

    The right decision is more important than the ego of the umpire who's missed something.

    If the other umpire is adamant that there was no foul then fine, no foul, but at least only his reputation has been damaged not yours or umpires generally.
     
  10. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    I mostly agree, I'd rather be the umpire that gets the decision right, than demand my area is sacrosanct and miss stuff which upsets teams - to me it is better to be seen as working as a team to get the right decision
     
  11. asc1991

    asc1991 FHF Top Player

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    I don't think it is undermining. No umpire realistically believes they see 100% of offences and get them 100% correct - they all know they are human. Equally, the should know the other umpire is human and they might make a mistake blowing for a challenge which you saw clearly, but deemed fair.

    Definitely an agreement needs to be made before the game, though that shouldn't have to be the case, it sadly is. Perhaps this could be more clearly defined in umpire training. A friend of mine umpired a game where he blew for a really clear (ffrom his view) foot in the D at the other end. One of those cast iron decisions... if you see it, the other umpire could not have seen it because it was very crowded. Anyway, at half time the other umpire had a right go at him for blowing in his half. Some people are just very 'precious' indeed.

    IMO - if a foul is cast iron clear and the other umpires hasn't blown (obscured view, or just missed it), the second umpire should always blow, but having given time for a possible advantage that the other umpire may be playing. In other situations, for example where a foul is less clear cut, it should be the closes umpire and the other should be ready to be consulted, but not blow.
     
  12. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    The text that I wrote and that you quoted is exactly what we get trained to do. Set out our expectations and agree on the appropriate way to work with each other to reach and communicate the most correct decision. We should do this, because it means we're working together at the same job in the same way, and we do it because it's key to doing that job well.

    Your friend might have made the correct decision, but they definitely weren't umpiring correctly. It's not just about getting the decision right, it's about ensuring the players and spectators feel and know that you did, more importantly, feeling and knowing that you and your colleague will get it right next time, and the time after that, and after that, and ...

    You can think all you like, but blowing a PC in your colleague's circle does undermine them, and it can be easily avoided by just thinking a little bit further than "blow what you see regardless of where". The more that umpires think and act as a team, the better we all get and the better the umpiring becomes.
     
  13. asc1991

    asc1991 FHF Top Player

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    We'll agree to disagree on this I think :)
     
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  14. shipstontkd

    shipstontkd FHF Top Player

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    But what your friend may not have seen is a great advantage opportunity that his colleague was playing.
     
  15. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    Can I like this more than once? Spot on.


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  16. sord89

    sord89 FHF Star Player

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    This is a joke right?
     
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  17. asc1991

    asc1991 FHF Top Player

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    As I stated: "the second umpire should always blow, but having given time for a possible advantage that the other umpire may be playing"

    So there's a defensive foot in the D. The umpire that end couldn't possibly see it. Then nothing of much happens and five seconds later the defenders spank the ball out the D, well clear, the near umpire doesn't blow. Of course the second umpire should blow for the earlier foot.
     
  18. shipstontkd

    shipstontkd FHF Top Player

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    I think its a bit of an assumption that they couldn't see, but even if they didn't and 5 seconds have gone by so has any advantage. The only recourse, if you feel strongly enough, would be to stop time and discuss it with your colleague and not to just blow. As @Nij said, it undermines one of the umpires and gives the players the impression that the they are not working together and on this point I speak from experience as both an umpire on both ends of the errand whistle and a player witnessing it.
     
  19. asc1991

    asc1991 FHF Top Player

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    On the contrary, I believe that it does not undermine the umpire and it shows that they are working together, by backing each other up and covering one another. Anyone feeling undermined by that is arguably too thin-skinned and/or egotistical to be an effective umpire.

    Also it's not really an assumption. If there's a clear foul (from your angle) and no advantage, you're assuming very little. For example if a shot hits a defenders foot and is then cleared out the half, blow. Any umpire not blowing then is being negligent of their duties. They should work as a team together, that's why we have two of them, otherwise we might as well just have one umpire - it would make it a lot easier for organising games!

    If we talk about working together, in a playing situation you expect teammates to cover you if you miss a tackle, get caught up the wrong end of the pitch etc. I don't worry I might undermine a teammate by tackling the player they're meant to mark.
     
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  20. shipstontkd

    shipstontkd FHF Top Player

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    I think you misunderstand me, what I am advocating is not doing nothing!! If you, as the other umpire believe something has been missed stop time and have a chat. Surely that conveys teamwork more strongly than just blowing the whistle for a pc for a foul or infringement that possibly most of the players (and under the circumstances you are describing the other umpire) have no idea occurred.
     

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