9.12 (not while lying on the floor) - 3 points of contact?

Discussion in 'Indoor Umpiring Questions' started by Diligent, Dec 19, 2016.

  1. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    At a regional junior tournament, the more 'traditional' umpires insisted that the essence of rule 9.12 is 3 points of contact with floor and no more, so even with both hands on the stick, the ball may be played with one of those hands touching the floor, but not both. Nowhere in any of my rules or briefings can I find '3 points' mentioned.

    Now the rule does say "no knee, arm or hand... other than the hand (singular) holding the stick". But does that allow only one hand holding the stick to be in contact with floor, or is it that if each/any hand on the floor is holding the stick, then the ball may be played ok?

    Is it different if the player has stick in both hands on the floor to make a static barrier against an opponent trying to push the ball through them?
     
  2. BlindGoalie613

    BlindGoalie613 FHF All Time Great

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    With both hands, and presumably the stick flat against the ground would it not be called a drill if the ball was thrown into their stick? Unsure which rule would take precedence here but suspect it would be drilling for reasons of player safety
     
  3. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Yes if the ball played hard from a short distance. But I have in mind the more static situation, where two players are pushing on opposite sides of the ball. If it lasts we reset for a bully, but is it a problem if one or both players have one or both sets of knuckles in contact with the floor? I think not. The '3 points' tradition says it is.
     
  4. RushMan

    RushMan FHF All Time Great

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    When I played indoor... Hand/hands on the stick didn't count towards the three points

    One of my team used to keep his balance when very low by grabbing his ankle.
     
  5. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    'Three points of contact' is no longer a rule of indoor hockey. Nor has it been for some time.

    In my view, if a player is holding the stick 'properly' and both hands are touching the floor but not actively supporting the player's body weight then play on is the correct call.

    Having said that, I'd be interested to hear @CardHappy's view after his busy weekend umpiring at the EH Supersixes Men's Premier Division indoor hockey...
     
  6. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    I agree with exactly what you have said @redumpire . The important thing to remember is the using the hands to support the weight bit. A hand touching the floor is not a foul unless the player gains an advantage e.g. Supporting themselves to extend reach.


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  7. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    If you read the FIH UM Briefing these are the points it raises (no pun intended) re lying on the pitch

    Field players must not play the ball while lying on the pitch or with a knee, arm or hand on the pitch other than the hand holding the stick• Accidental use of the hand or knee on the floor for balance should not be blown as an offence, where no advantage is gained• Players should not be penalised if the ball just touches the hand which is holding the stick• Goalkeepers or players with goalkeeping privileges who are lying on the pitch are only permitted to play the ball provided that both they and the ball are inside the circle


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  8. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Thanks @redumpire and @CardHappy for confirming that '3 points of contact' is not helpful. And yes I had seen the briefing, but that first part is just the rule.

    What does help is the idea that using other than feet to support weight will break the rule, even if it's a hand with a stick in it - shame the rule or bulletin doesn't mention that. And conversely a knee or elbow is allowed to touch the floor, provided it isn't bearing weight. <Edit: ignore the next sentence - it's wrong - see posts below> And furthermore a diving deflection will be no goal, even if nothing is touching the floor at the point of contact, because the player will, very shortly, be lying on the floor.

    From the weekend: In the two handed push at the ball (that I mentioned earlier) the hands were supporting weight, so to penalise was correct. A couple of whistles for barely consequential contact were maybe unfair. And the diving goal was given because... well no one knew what the umpire was thinking, nor why the other umpire didn't intervene.
     
    #8 Diligent, Dec 19, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  9. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    If a player is in the air whilst playing the ball that is fine. As long as the ball is off their stick when they land..


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  10. Gilly

    Gilly FHF Legend

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  11. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    How have you come to that (erroneous) conclusion from what @CardHappy and I have posted above?

    This is correct:
     
  12. greyrobin

    greyrobin FHF Newbie

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    Depends which "diving" goal you mean! For one of them the ball was away from the stick before the player's knee made contact with the floor, which I believe is OK - though I couldn't see what her hand was doing. The other one... :confused: (perhaps she didn't actually make contact with the ball)
     
  13. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    My 'diving' example was another year. The weekend goal I was thinking she slid on at least one knee and elbow to nudge it under the keeper, and most on the benches thought she played it. Doesn't really matter, as disallowing would have made it 8-1 rather than 9-1.
     
  14. BlindGoalie613

    BlindGoalie613 FHF All Time Great

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    My thoughts too.
     
  15. CardHappy

    CardHappy FHF Legend

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    The main issue with the above situation is not the "3 points" but the trying to push the ball through a stick. If the ball becomes trapped give a bully, if one player tries pushing through another penalise it.


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  16. ironman

    ironman FHF Top Player

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    When you say pushing do you mean a push pass or pushing when the ball is sandwiched between the two players sticks? If it's sandwiched and you ended up with a 'scrum' scenario where one player could push harder forcing the other player backwards would that be a foul or play on?
     
  17. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Based on the 'bearing weight' idea the player who wins the static forcing contest is putting yet more weight on their hands on the floor, so is to be penalised. That seems fair.
     
  18. ironman

    ironman FHF Top Player

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    Sorry, didn't make that clear - both players low to the ground but no/only left hand on floor.
     
  19. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Ok, see your point.
    If it's no/only one hand on floor, and it's starting to move then it'll be over in a second and play can continue.
    Full on bulldozer, with feet planted to force two hands along floor - penalize.
     
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