1s players playing lower

Discussion in 'England Hockey' started by sord89, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    There’s a few discussions on this on FHF as you can imagine. One of the issues is the heavy reliance of the sport on school facilities, which in a number of cases are used by a different sport in the summer.

    We also have very low provision of indoor facilities. One of the reasons Germany and some of the others have this is because handball is very popular, and I think uses the same size goal, etc to hockey.

    Nb I would prefer the league to have a longer winter break and run into Summer personally.
     
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  2. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    The issue will always come down to some requirement that players who are regulars for a higher team can't play for lower teams without special dispensation whether it's starring, fixed based on number of games played for 1s etc or teams will just come up with "legitimate" reasons why that player conveniently needs to play 2s just as the 2s need a win to stay up.

    A first team national league side should be able to get the best out of their top players, players suffer drops in form yes but then they should be benched or train more. Perhaps though they are banned from dropping to the second team for the last 1/2 or 1/3 of the season, or maybe you get a wild card or two to swap players starring but can't change it back or if they are dropped to the 2s, they must play 3 games in a row etc
     
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  3. JE87

    JE87 FHF Regular Player

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    Absolutely - I try to keep out of them! I coach in Germany so I know the situation here, we use the same facilities as Handball - a great game which is a shame isn't played so much in the UK. And I also know the problems with indoor facilities - I used to coach at Reading, and at the time both the men and women trained at a school with goals, but the boards weren't really suitable, and worst of all the court was too small! It would always take the women a game or 2 to get used to the normal sized pitch again. Didn't stop us winning a few titles though ;)
     
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  4. Thorney

    Thorney FHF Regular Player

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    National League clubs aren't IMO any different really than other clubs, they don't turn into superbly run, cash rich organisations functioning with the military precision of a Roman legion just because of this label, (as we discussed last night whilst stumbling out of the curry house...) They have the same random bunch of amateurs doing their best, trying to spend the £1 of club funds in such a way to get £2 of value.

    Banning people from playing for lower teams is difficult/wrong for dropped players, as everyone will have paid their club subs, and surely they have a right to play a game of hockey. I don't think there is a perfect answer, it is fairly well policed at the moment up here, and I would continue with status quo..
    As the results in one region. don't really affect other regions, there isn't an urgent need to make all regions have identical rules. Although various folks with "connections" say that one of the drivers for the NL expansion is to give EH more control over the regions, that along with the governance resolution may see regional rules gradually become more uniform.
     
  5. murph

    murph FHF All Time Great

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    Same random bunch of amateurs - Players not compensated for their efforts on the pitch?
     
  6. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    I didn't say NL teams suddenly had loads of money but there would be an expectation the first team would have a coach or some way of pushing their players to achieve their potential and those players should be good enough to play each week - it's clearly not the same having a second team player going to the thirds, as a national league level player dropping down 3-4 divisions (and I'd argue back, what do they gain from that?)

    The issue isn't dropping players for poor performance, it's because teams pretend they are doing it for poor performance to boost lower teams - that's why you have the starring system, to have some way to stop them dropping down just to boost, even if it's just say the last 5 games of the season or whatever.
     
  7. Thorney

    Thorney FHF Regular Player

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    None of our players are paid - £0.00 zero zilch SFA
    None of our players are in the main GB squad, so none of them get any central funding. One of them is at a GB EDP training camp this week, he is taking 2 days unpaid leave from his job to go along - if he gets good enough for GB, he will leave Brooklands to go down south to be near Bisham Abbey for training

    They are all amateurs, just like you, but with a much bigger petrol bill

    I doubt there are that many folks who actually get paid just for playing - it is not common up here at all
    Our coaches for 1s and 2s are paid obviously (3rd team coach is unpaid) , and players who do coaching within the club/juniors get money from that, but the amounts would be small really.

    Maybe down in the South/East there are players getting paid amounts (small/medium/large) just to play, but we have never done it - we simply do NOT have the money. I sometimes wonder how many of these "x is getting paid by Somewhere HC to play" stories are actually true, there will always been elements like cheaper/free accomodation type stuff, but that happens at all levels of hockey and is not just a NL only thing.
    Chris Grassick's parents assured me that Surbiton do not pay any of their players - some of them are possibly centrally funded?.
    It just isn't as common as the rumour mill would have people believe IMHO

    The "same random bunch of amateurs" comment was obviously referring to the folks who actually run a club, chairman, treasurer, secretary etc - all of whom get paid diddly squat here, much like the England batting lineup should be.
     
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  8. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    Very much agree (and it was pretty obvious to me you mean club management, chair, etc by random bunch of amateurs - and even paid players are rare and unlikely to be the ones dropped).

    The point you make about the effect of the drop @Gingerbread is less about them being NL and more about the gap between which division the teams are in. A player dropping from NL Conf to regional Prem would have far less impact than say a regional Prem to div 5/6 drop (as used to happen regularly with a team I used to play against).

    Most teams I know want their 1s to finish as high as possible and would never prioritise a 2s game ahead of that. The only situation I could see where it gets tempting to “game/cheat” is if the 1s aren’t playing (winter) or are playing a completely dead rubber at the end of the season AND the 2s have a crucial game. If the 2s don’t have a crucial game, I would be minded to think it is exactly the circumstances that you might give a 2s player some time in the 1s to try and sharpen them up for next year, ie as part of broadening your wider squad. Also, bear in mind the majority of your 2s will be “1s squad”, ie NL registered, and players should be moving between the two regularly, whether for form, fatigue, injury, blooding youngsters, whatever it is. The notion of the 1s as some fancy pants squad that sits on top of the club & isn’t really part of the wider set up is w

    The odd occasions I have seen starring, my personal opinion has been that it is an unnecessarily cumbersome time consuming extra thing for busy people running a complex club in their spare time - ie the sort of thing that puts people off volunteering.
     
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  9. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    I can guarantee you there are ladies teams in Midlands who have experienced NL players who aren't badged who drop down to help their seconds (2 leagues down) to stay in the league if they are in trouble, I've even umpired them. When the firsts have nothing to play for with say 4-5 games left, you will absolutely see NL players in the 2nds to boost them if the 2nds might go down. This isn't opinion or anecdote, the players are well known enough and league sheets prove it. In your experience, perhaps teams don't, perhaps it's a South thing. If you think about it, if your team was say 2nd tier regional, if they drop to third tier, it's a bigger gulf for players to go between so it is logical to want your 2s to stay up or get them promoted.

    Couple of examples, Olton Ladies 1s are mid table National West, their 2s are currently bottom of Midlands 2 (3rd tier) and in danger of dropping down to 4th tier with 8 games to go - if their firsts are safe with 5-6 games left, it wouldn't be impossible that one or two of their non-badged NL squad players (totally legally I must remind you) play 2s to keep them up. Ditto Cannock (2nds are 3rd from bottom in Midlands 1) or Sutton Coldfield (2nds 6th) or Stourport (2nds 5th) - there are only 5 points between 10th and 5th
     
    #49 Gingerbread, Dec 6, 2017 at 10:48 PM
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017 at 9:49 AM
  10. murph

    murph FHF All Time Great

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    Fascinating conundrum for me - Is this right? If Olton/Cannock and all the rest do not have enough good players, why should they be artificially allowed to stay up at the expense of someone else?

    It might help the upper echelons of field hockey, but what about the little guys? Then again, is grass roots hockey outside of private schools really a focus or even an afterthought for the relevant authorities?
     
  11. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    I would take the thinking that if you had say a young team who are maybe a year or so away from being considered for first team, you don't want them playing 2-3 seasons low down trying to get the team to competitive hockey so they are ready for first team eventually and playing at a poorer standard of hockey so the jump up is more noticeable. A good first team should be able to beat a second team with a handful of first team players if they want to push up towards NL
     
  12. Mac

    Mac FHF Legend

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    I'm just going to cherry-pick a few points and go from there...

    1. - Starring

    I once knew of a club in Yorkshire who starred the 6 'worst' players in their 1st XI ladies squad. Wholly within the letter of the rules, which required 6 players to be starred, but it enabled them to drop their better players through the teams as necessary. Not really in the spirit of the rule.

    On this @Gingerbread's examples of Midlands Clubs ring true. Our L1s have tumbled to Feeder but were playing Prem & Div1 over the past decade. There was more than a few occasions at the end of the season where Sutton would field a former England international striker, who shall remain nameless, to assist their 2nds.

    2. - Dropping Players and Differing Rulesets

    I've encountered first-hand the impact differing rulesets. County leagues appear to have more restrictive rules than Midlands, which has meant that we have been penalised for fielding a 1st XI outfielder in goal for the 2nd XI because that was "dropping a player to gain an unfair advantage". Not sure that actually rings true...

    Equally, and due to the application of this rule by the County (that is to say they view "regular" players for a higher team as ineligible) you create a culture where players cant be dropped despite illness, injury or loss of form requiring it.

    A homogenised set of rules would be beneficial. Yes, some would try and take advantage still, but the confusion would be minimised.
     
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  13. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Surely not someone whose name sounds like Drain Pixjif?
     
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  14. Mac

    Mac FHF Legend

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    *Whistles*

    I don't know who you mean... I was thinking of Elaine Pickswhiff ;)
     
  15. Willowsacorns

    Willowsacorns FHF Legend

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    Reminds me of my favourite tipple

    Gin, Sipsmith.
     
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  16. FatForward

    FatForward FHF Top Player

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    It's at this point and keeping in mind I play for the ninth team in my club, I look at the comments above and in true 'Monty Python Yorkshireman Sketch' style I say...luxury.
    When you are playing the second bottom team away from home and you are 7-0 down in the 60th minute and their best 4 players leave the pitch at the same time and run off to the car park and 4 players who until that point had played no part in the game come on......then you've had it tough.
     
  17. Thorney

    Thorney FHF Regular Player

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    Serves you right for calling the team the 5A's and not the 9ths :)

    But seriously are folks allowed to play twice in your leagues?
    I appreciate there are multiple leagues within the south league, so rules may vary.
    I think many/most? clubs have played the system at one time or another, to try and keep teams in a divison or ensure promotion, it isn't limited to NL or "big" clubs, and can happen at practically all levels as your example shows.
    Completely stopping it is IMO impossible, as it will often come down to a subjective view on whether player A was dropped, unable to play away etc, and the league folks don't have the time to check every potential incident throughout the divisions.

    The can't play twice rule is understandable, but when teams are genuinely short, which can happen to any club, it is sad to see 9 struggle against 11 when on the sidelines are people willing to play and ensure that everyone has a better game.

    Next week will be tough up here, as yesterday was wiped out, and the games are rescheduled for the 16th, we will lose all of our MU students as they will have broken up for xmas, so it will be an All hands on deck situation, being able to play some of the 5/6/7s twice would help, but those are the rules, good time to be playing us.
     
  18. FatForward

    FatForward FHF Top Player

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    I don't mind which team a player plays for if it's their only game, they've played their annual sub they are entitled to a game. Playing twice is a no no, clubs do it of course but a blind eye is normally shown if it's say half term week or only done rarely.
    I won't say anymore because I have some strong views on how some clubs abuse this.
     
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